help please? melted electricity meter tails

[nickjames100]

Hi, I would very grateful for any advice. We recently had melted / burnt meter tails in our house. After noticing a burning smell we turned off the consumer unit and called an electrician, who located the problem, so we called our power supplier. The power company sent an engineer from siemens, who called northern powergrid, who came and replaced the mains fuse. The siemens engineer then replaced the meter and tails. We were told the tails melted because the terminals inside the meter were loose/ not screwed down. I have a couple of questions:

1 - who owns which bits?
2 - who is responsible for the faulty wiring?
3 - can loose meter terminals cause voltage problems / other electrical equipment to fail? Since moving in we have had to replace countless bulbs and just about every electrical item we owned as one by they all packed up.
4 - how long can something like this go unnoticed? We have lived here six years
5 - how dangerous was it? Could we have had a fire if we hadnt spotted it?

many thanks to anyone who can help

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Meters is owned by the National Grid i believe, and since it has a sealed cover where cables are terminated therefore all connections are carried out by the NG, or their approved contractors.

But there are cases where approved electrical contractorsv can also break the seal and replace faulty tails and apply a new seal.

In which case it will be hard to prove who left the terminal screws lose.

Yes the electrical resistance of the terminal will go high if a cable is not screwed tightly, and generate heat which can cause fire risk, depending on how much current is passing through this poor joint, the higher the current the higher the risk.

Ordinarily you may not have noticed any dimming of lights except when using high powered items like kettle, hoover, washing machine, fan heater ect.

Some items do not like erratic supply and can cause premature failure, bulbs in paricularly can fail as they tend to draw 10 times more current on switching on from cold filament as the resistance of tungsten element increases with temperature, so once the filament gets hot the current drops tenth of starting current, you may find that most bulbs blow on switchon, as opposed to a bulb just plopping out while it was lit. this would happen even if your electrics were Ok. Mains 230V switches rapidly on and off at 50Hz, which means each cycle goes through a zero points before swinging to the opposite polarity, hence it is called alternate current, most of the time when we switch our lights on, we are mostly lucky as the sine wave may be at or near zero and you will have to be spot on to strike the switch when the sine wave is at peak level, it is at peak level that bulbs are at their most vulnerable to failure through a thermal shock, that is what causes the old incandacent bulbs to pop on switch on.




same applies to motorised items which will tend to draw a lot of current when current is disrupted briefly, its the back emf that can cause more damage in such items.

And the only reason you did not notice this is because meter tails are fairly snug fit and so even if the screws were not fully tight, you won't have been getting total power intruption otherwisr you would have noticed lights flickering.

And as for your house catching fire, the risk is real, hot tails can spontainiously combust into flames and hot melted insulation can catch fire and drip down with flames spreading.

But luck was on your side, it was a risk, but it did not materialise.

 

[nickjames100]

Thanks very much mike, exellent

 

[RF Lighting]

1 - who owns which bits?

The supply cable to your house and the cutout (black or grey box on the end of the main supply cable) are the responsibility of the DNO

The tails out of the top of the cutout to the meter and the meter it's self are the responsibility of who ever you buy your electricity from. (i.e. british gas, npower, edf etc)

The tails leaving the meter to your installation, and everything after there are your (or your electricians) responsibility.

2 - who is responsible for the faulty wiring?

It depends on which bit of the installation caused the fault.

3 - can loose meter terminals cause voltage problems / other electrical equipment to fail? Since moving in we have had to replace countless bulbs and just about every electrical item we owned as one by they all packed up.

Definately could cause an issue with lightbulbs, maybe an issue with some electronic items, and probably not with things like your toaster / kettle / cooker.

4 - how long can something like this go unnoticed? We have lived here six years

Six years then!

5 - how dangerous was it? Could we have had a fire if we hadnt spotted it?

It's obviously not ideal, but in all reality it would have just carried on as it was until the joint got so bad your supply failed. I see loads of failed high resistance joints, and have only known one to start a fire, but that was on a very old, overloaded and abused installation. All plastics used on electrical installations are self extinguishing, and it would be extremely unusual for them to start a fire.


Not entirely sure where Mike gets his information from, but much of it is wrong.

 

[Taylortwocities]

who owns which bits?

http://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...documents/A typical domestic power supply.pdf

 

[Mikefromlondon]

;p="3023455Not entirely sure where Mike gets his information from, but much of it is wrong.

Much of it is wrong is it? just one bit is wrong or not even wrong since the Privatisation of Electricity, things may have changed, before that only your energy supplier was responsible for both supply distribution and meters, again this varied from region to region, in London before the privatisation it was London Electricity responsible for both meters and distribution. But as I said things may have changed where Elecricity and Gas has been divided between Power Generation and Network Distribution (Nation Grid) and Energy providers who may now be responsible for metering, thats all, so where do you get much of what i said was wrong?

Recently I lost all power to my house during the night when not much power was in use, turns out to be a cable fault under the pavement, I only needed to call EON and they organised the repairs, I didn't have to call NG to come and repair the fault underground. But the vans outside belonged to NG and not EON. My meter was changed also recently and it was NG who changed it, not EON. Though they may be responsible for it or own it, well actually we all pay for our meters as a standing charge!

As for wires catching fire, not all PVC insulated cables are fire retardant, depending if they meet BS and many imported cables fail to meet safety standards, and if fire retardant material is not added PVC cables can spontaniously combust, I have seen cars catching fire due to electrocal shorts on wiring looms.

I have also fought an electrical fire at the major distribution board in a big temple building where the incoming cable burst into flames and the black bitument seal started to drip with flames coming out of them, I quickly moved flamable sacks of flour stored under the mains distribution board all the while the crackling was going on, and started to fight the flames with a local version of a broom, looked around for fire extinguishers, but you don't see these in 3rd world countries! and I beat the flames and finally the whole thing went bang with such a loud thunderous bang that I jumped back 3 feet! but I beat the ****e out of those flames. If had i not done that lives of hundreds of people would have been in danger, trampede, and so on, Though this incident did not happen in UK but abroad when I went on my holidays. I was just passing a doorway in this huge temple complex, when i heard a bang, and straight away i knew something electrical had gone wrong in this room, I opened the door and it turned out to be the main electrical distribution room for the entire building, entered this room and saw flames pouring out of the terminating head unit, and went into quick action, not thinking of my own safety but those of others visiting this temple. I don't need H&S BS, my insticts took over and killed that fire!
Afterwards, when that large thunderous bang occured, all the lights and power went dead, and for about 10 seconds everyone started to panic, it became very dark, and I thought it was best to make a run now as I might get stampeded, but fortunately emergency generators came in! so I went back in to ensure all was safe and no flames were left burning.

 

[bernardgreen]

and started to fight the flames with a local version of a broom,~~~ ~~~~but I beat the s***te out of those flames.

Some people get all the fun. And a massive chunk of good luck.

Bagged flour is not highly imflamable but flour dust in the air can burn very rapidly to the extent it can be explosive.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/food/dustexplosion.htm

 

[westie101]

Well Mike sorry but you are way off base!!

National Grid are responsible for the electrical transmission system at 275kV and above in England, Scotland and Northern Ireland have different Transmission Operators
Below those voltages distribution is the responsibility of the DNO's, non of which are owned by national grid.

In the London area it is UK Power Networks! (used to be EDF and before that LEB)

In the NW of England it is Electricity Northwest (I actually work for them so do know)
In the SW Western Power Distribution.

RF Lighting is absolutely correct.


Perhaps this will help

http://www.energynetworks.org/info/faqs/electricity-distribution-map.html

and this

http://www.energynetworks.org/info/faqs/electricity-transmission-map.html
(Though National Grid do own TRANSCO one of the Gas supplier/distributors)

 

[westie101]

Going back to the OP, the meter will be owned by your Supplier and will have been fitted by a meter operator working on their behalf.

Sadly loose meter terminals are becoming quite commonplace owing to the time pressures on the guys that change the meters, we deal with at least one a week

 

[Mikefromlondon]

My information was based on the fact that National Grid are responsible for carrying Electricity as well as Gas meters hence I thought they must also be responsible for Electric meters. Though they have now given this responsibility to DNO, which is part of the National Grid, This I can prove from these pictures, where one such meter swapp resulted in one of their operatives having left the gas meter test nipple lose, and gas was leaking from it! as well as if you click in this url http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/Our-company/electricity/Distribution-Network-Operator-Companies/ it tells you that DNO is part of National Grid,

My understanding is that all Energy infra-structure i.e. High Voltage Pylons carrying electric current, (the National Grid) sub-stations, and streetwise distribution at any voltage, as well as the Gas supply pipes, storage bellows and all underground pipes up to and including the meter is the responsibility of National Grid, or their subsidiary companies which are grouped as DNO, they are all property of the National Grid except that Energy suppliers are independent of NG and are responsible for administering and metering the usage, in other words bodies like EDF, British Gas, Southern Electric, EON are suppliers and have nothing to do with supply infrastructure, pipelines, cables, and meters, this is dealt by National Grid, or their subsidiries (DNO) or any indepenedent approved contaractors .

your energy supplier, who only adminsiter accounts and bill your energy usage and work indepenedently of the National Grid, all supply equipment up to the meters belong to National Grid or DNO

So I was miles out! was I? oh no I was totally wrong!

My view is that Meters are not the property of energy suppliers, if you change your supplier then the old supplier does not come and remove his old meter and the new supplier does not install his new meter, that is because they do not own these meters, and is therefore not their property but they may take resonsibility for them, it belongs to National Grid and they are the only ones or their approved contarctors who can work on them.
Your energy supplier is your first point of contact if anything goes wrong with the meter, it is them who will summon NG or DNO who are part of the National Grid , why am I totally wrong! http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/Our-company/electricity/Distribution-Network-Operator-Companies/

so ultimately National Grid are responsible for all metering through their subsidiary companies which are part of the National Grid called DNO.

If Energy suppliers were responsible for meters, we would be seeing so many different types of meters each with its own supplier's logo, and specifications, as are now the smart meters. Things may have changed so i am open to discussion and update my understanding.

 

[bernardgreen]

That letter was from National Grid Metering Ltd

http://www2.nationalgrid.com/uk/services/metering/

National Grid Metering is a subsidiary company of National Grid and provides metering services in the regulated gas metering market. As part of the National Grid group of companies, National Grid Metering has a long-rooted heritage in the gas industry which serves as a firm foundation for future growth and development.

National Grid currently owns around 15 million domestic, industrial and commercial gas meters. National Grid Metering provides metering services to National Grid and manages the relationship with its customers, the gas shippers. Our aim is to deliver a high quality, value for money service to our customers.

There are more than 15 million domestic, industrial and commercial gas in the UK so they are not the only company involved with gas metering.

And the topic is about electricity meters and not gas meters.

 

[westie101]

So from your mistaken view my employer is a subsidiarity of National Grid, it ISN't it is owned by two banks and a hedge fund!
http://www.enwl.co.uk/about-us

Or to put it anther way I've worked there for 40 years so might just know more than you.

P.S. DNO means Distribution Network Operator, it is not the name of a company!!

It might also be useful for you to carefully read both sides of your latest electricity bill. On it it will tell you who your DNO is and the number to contact in case of loss of supply. I'll guarantee you will not find National Grid mentioned.
You could then go to that company's website and see if you can find any evidence to back your idea.

 

[Anomgalan]

Hi, I would very grateful for any advice. We recently had melted / burnt meter tails in our house. After noticing a burning smell we turned off the consumer unit and called an electrician, who located the problem, so we called our power supplier. The power company sent an engineer from siemens, who called northern powergrid, who came and replaced the mains fuse. The siemens engineer then replaced the meter and tails. We were told the tails melted because the terminals inside the meter were loose/ not screwed down. I have a couple of questions:

1 - who owns which bits?
2 - who is responsible for the faulty wiring?
3 - can loose meter terminals cause voltage problems / other electrical equipment to fail? Since moving in we have had to replace countless bulbs and just about every electrical item we owned as one by they all packed up.
4 - how long can something like this go unnoticed? We have lived here six years
5 - how dangerous was it? Could we have had a fire if we hadnt spotted it?

many thanks to anyone who can help

I have to agree with all that Mikefromlondon has told you. As regards your last query, YES you could have had a fire. I have witnessed just such in a small number of similar cases and of course this problem is compounded by the fact that we don't have Meter readers who now, who only did that type of job and were employed by the electricity supply companise. Now they are mostly freelance individuals, who at best turn up once a year to read the meters and don't really have a clue about the possibility of this type of fault and hence, don't bother to check for it. Fortunately, this type of fire is confined to the meter tails and associated Meter / fusegear, which is mostly bakelite and therefore fire retardent, as should any board be, that they are fixed onto

 

[RF Lighting]

If you agree with mike, then you're also wrong as has been clearly explained why in this thread.


Bakelite? Which decade does your diy book come from?

 

[Mikefromlondon]

If you agree with mike, then you're also wrong as has been clearly explained why in this thread.


Bakelite? Which decade does your diy book come from?

There is absolutely nothing to disagree, there, because that is a fact, remove your blinkers and check the DNO website, they all fall under the umbrella of National Grid. since each of their subsideries operate in different regions and are known with different names, hence they grouped them as DNO for Electricity distribution whereas national Grid deals with gas meters and other gas infrastructure. oh as well as the high Voltage Pylons. Overall it makes little difference as to who is responsible for the meter, or its tails, it is definitely not the owner, it will either be a shoddy electrician, or DNO or before DNO came into being it would be National Grid before the privatisation.

And as for baklite, it is one of the best materials one can use on electrics besides ceramics as insulator for both heat and as a dilectric.