16Amp oven - on a socket circuit?

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Hi,

I know this issue has been touched on in various forms over the forums but can I get a definitive answer please...

Scenario: I managed to melt the PCB on our oven when the light unit fell into the oven and shorted out. New oven found but not bought yet. Old oven had a 13A plug and just plugged in to the ring main in the kitchen which also has the kettle and toaster on the same ring (2Kw and 0.9Kw respectively), new oven is 16A. Ring has a 80A RCD at the CU. Can I safely connect the new oven via an altered hardwired connection to this ring main? I would swap the 13A plug sockets for a different fitting to take up to say 20A...if we remain aware of adding no other resistive load to the ring will it be ok for us? Thanks for all input, sorry if this is repetitive.
 
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No.

The only accessories you may supply with a ring final are BS 1363 ones, i.e. sockets and FCUs.

If you have seen the recent discussions you will have seen those concerning diversity and the use of 13A plugs on such ovens.

BTW - that yours is "16A" doesn't necessarily mean that it's a 3680W appliance, it could well be that the instructions tell you to connect it to a 16A circuit, which is what socket circuits are in the land of its birth.
 
Many seem to call any 13A sockets a ring when of course they could be on a radial and with the comment "80A RCD" rather than B32 MCB points to not really knowing much about the system installed.

Taking a cooker supply and adding a couple of sockets is very different from taking a ring and adding a cooker the former could have a cooker connection unit fitted the latter should not have any fixed appliance over 2kW.

Even in my own house I would find it hard to point out which socket comes from which circuit my wife would on appreciate little stickers on every socket and since both cooker circuit and ring have B32 MCB's it would need some investigation to see if a 6mm² cable or 2 x 2.5mm² cables are being used. And this would need checking both ends of cable in case there is a lollipop arrangement.
 
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the latter should not have any fixed appliance over 2kW.
This is not a regulation, nor would it be unsafe.
Indeed - 'fixed' is, IMO, really just a red herring, relating primarily to size and weight. What matters is how often, and for how long, they draw power. ... and, having got that out of the way, if we didn't connect loads of ≥2kW to sockets circuits, we probably would not need to have 32A ones!

Kind Regards, John
 
the latter should not have any fixed appliance over 2kW.
This is not a regulation, nor would it be unsafe.
Indeed - 'fixed' is, IMO, really just a red herring, relating primarily to size and weight. What matters is how often, and for how long, they draw power. ... and, having got that out of the way, if we didn't connect loads of ≥2kW to sockets circuits, we probably would not need to have 32A ones!

Kind Regards, John
I would have to agree. An oven will likely reach temperature within 15 minutes and from that point starts to cycle so is in real terms less of a problem than a tumble drier which could run at maximum power for 90 minutes.

What makes me stop and wonder is the fact the 13A socket and the ring system was designed during latter stages of the second world war to allow the use of electric heating in the house. So it was designed to supply 3kW for a very long time.

However the original plugs did not have the finger protection sleeves seen on plugs today so could transmit the heat from the fuse into the socket far better and the socket helped disperse the heat.

One big point is all plugs should be in free air to allow cooling.

I hear it said we use more power today. Are you sure. As a boy we would have an electric fire in every room lighting a coal or coke fire took time and only in the main rooms would a fire be lit. OK when I was ill I would have a coal fire in the bed room but mine was the only upstairs room with a grate all other rooms were electric only. Even bathroom had a 1kW radiant heater.

When my parents had central heating fitted I am sure the electric usage went down and I would not think it has ever reached the post central heating level.

Even with electric heating about the time my parents fitted central heating the white meter arrived with the storage heater so most of the load was removed from the ring final.

Back in the 1960's yes putting a cooker of any type on the ring final would have been the last straw often with a single ring for whole of house from time to time my dad did have to replace the wire in the fuse.

Today often a house has three ring finals and non are loaded to the degree they were in the 1960's. Of course every house is not the same. Mine built 1979 had a single ring final but also a cooker supply and immersion heater supply the latter with a switch in the kitchen. This switch is now a socket as is the FCU where the cistern was. This in my house would lend its self well to supplying an oven.

OK I have been in this house from new and know what feeds what if I took over this house today working out which of the 8 MCB's in the garage feed what would take some working out. Today two ring finals, cooker supply, lights, and 5 radials. I would expect many other houses are the same as bits have been added.

So back to oven in question first job is to work out what you have. Maybe you already have a supply which can be used. Could be very simple as it would be in my house. Or it could mean no option but bring another supply from the consumer unit. So starting at consumer unit start to work out what every fuse/MCB feeds. As an example with my house it would start:-
1) 6A all lights
2) 16A one socket kitchen, one socket (back to back) living room, one socket office.
3) 32A Main ring main
4) 32A Cooker
I will not go any further but No2 in my case was original the immersion heater and could run a 16A oven in kitchen without a problem even leaving the other two sockets connected. Main point is it is feed from a 16A MCB so a simple 20A switch and cooker connection unit is all that is required. But the same would not be true for sockets on the ring final.
 
Indeed - 'fixed' is, IMO, really just a red herring, relating primarily to size and weight. What matters is how often, and for how long, they draw power. ... and, having got that out of the way, if we didn't connect loads of ≥2kW to sockets circuits, we probably would not need to have 32A ones!
I would have to agree. An oven will likely reach temperature within 15 minutes and from that point starts to cycle so is in real terms less of a problem than a tumble drier which could run at maximum power for 90 minutes.
Indeed -and as I have recently written, 'non-fixed' appliances, like a fan heater or other heater (particularly one without thermostatic control) could well run at 'high power'for long periods of time. As I said, it is the magnitude and pattern of power usage which matters, regardless of the 'fixed'/'non-fixed' distinction.
I hear it said we use more power today. Are you sure. As a boy we would have an electric fire in every room lighting a coal or coke fire took time and only in the main rooms would a fire be lit. .... Even bathroom had a 1kW radiant heater. ... When my parents had central heating fitted I am sure the electric usage went down and I would not think it has ever reached the post central heating level.
My intuition would certainly be the same as yours. However, government statistics seem to indicate that power consumption increased progressively and relentlessly until quite recently - domestic, industrial and 'other' (I wonder what that is?!) consumption all appear to have peaked around 2005, with appreciable reductions after that (with apologies for the poor quality rendition of my rapidly-put-together graphs!)....

Kind Regards, John
 
The number of dwelling in Great Britain increased from 7.7 million start of 20th century to 26.2 million in 2008. It would seem new permanent dwellings over last 20 years peaked in 2006/7 at 219,000.

The near straight line graph shows 1951 at 15 million and 2008 at 25 million so if you compare eclectic power used per dwelling rather than per person then the amount of electric power used per dwelling has gone down.

Between 1901 and 2008 the number of dwellings in England increased over three and a half times,
from nearly 6.3 million to around 22.4 million. The rate of increase was smaller in the other UK
countries. In Wales the number of dwellings increased three times from 433,000 to 1.3 million,
while in Scotland the number of dwellings more than doubled from 986,000 to 2.5 million over the
same period. In Northern Ireland the number of dwellings doubled from 354,000 in 1951 (the
earliest data available) to 737,000 in 2008 (DCLG 2010b).

We are really trying to compare a modern house 1954 with same house 2014 and in 1951 there were many old houses still using gas for lights even when they did have electric power often only 2 fifteen amp sockets for whole of house. I was not looking at those houses I was looking at a house with the new 13A sockets my father tells me his 1954 house had 5 x 13A sockets one in every room except kitchen where his father-in-laws house just before the war had just 2 sockets.

So only looking at houses built after the second world war. There was no need for a fire in the kitchen as the range cooker was never let out but living room and sitting room would only have fires lit when wanted all day electric fires were used when heating only needed for a few hours.

So although today microwave, kettle, oven, hob all use high power these don't run for that long compared with the electric fires used before gas central heating was fitted.

Maybe the area was a little unusual as the steel works sold off the small sized coke to it's workers cheap so central heating was not installed until around 1975.

My first house 1975 has hot air gas central heating but the next one 1979 had just one gas fire in living room we had to fit central heating after we bought it new. So 1980 still building houses without central heating.

By 1990 one would not consider building a house without central heating so post war houses likely had a reduction in electric power used on the ring final until around 1990 when it would have steadily raised again. Remember I am not including power used by the white meter for storage radiators only that used from the ring.

Today we can split 13A plugged equipment in to groups.
1) Under 3A which will include most of the items.
2) Around the 6A mark that is the microwave, toaster.
3) Short time 10 -13A that's kettle, oven, dishwasher.
4) Long time 13A that's immersion heater tumble drier.
5) Over 13A Shower, Cooker.

The grey import of 16A ovens from Europe is the odd one out and it's hard to decide if should be put with group 3 or 4 as although over 13A it uses power for such a short time it would be unlikely to blow a 13A fuse or cause an overload for long enough to worry.

What we need is a 16A FCU so oven can be put on same supply as hob without needing heavy cable but never seen one.

I missed out washing machine as the washer/drier would drop in to group 4 but without drier into group 3.
 
The near straight line graph shows 1951 at 15 million and 2008 at 25 million so if you compare eclectic power used per dwelling rather than per person then the amount of electric power used per dwelling has gone down.
Again, only markedly for the last few years (since about 2005). For the period prior to 1981, I only have to hand the 'number of UK dwellings' figures from the censuses (1951, 1961, 1971), and nor do I have a domestic electricity consumption (only 'total') for 1951, but, for the time being ....

Kind Regards, John
 
The downturn in that graph looks to be spookily close to the start of the financial crisis & subsequent recession/depression.

Coincidence?
 
have you got a graph showing price per kWh?

With heating being the biggest domestic energy-user, and energy from electricity costing three times as much as energy from gas, no sensible householder will be tipping money into electric heating.
 
have you got a graph showing price per kWh? With heating being the biggest domestic energy-user, and energy from electricity costing three times as much as energy from gas, no sensible householder will be tipping money into electric heating.
The Department of Energy historic electricity prices data I have is odd. Firstly, it stops at 1990. Secondly, they have adjusted the prices (to 1990 levels) according to GDP, which may or may not b the best way of getting a 'real' cost. These figures relate to 'all consumers' (not just domestic) - presumably an overall average of some sort. I'll see if I can find some better figures ...
As you can see, there was relatively little change in 'real cost' (GDP-adjusted price) between 1960 and 1990. To give you a feel for the actual (not GDP-adjusted) figures, the price was 1.033 pence/kWh (actually 2.48 'old pence'/kWh) in 1921, 0.494 pence/kWh (1.19 d/kWh) in 1950 and 5.369 pence/kWh in 1990.

Kind Regards, John
 

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