Air gap between underfloor heating pipe and flooring

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Hi, I have recently purchased a new build which has a ground source heat pump and underfloor heating throughout. I noticed that when it gets cold, the upstairs rooms take a long time to reheat. This has also generated some rather large bills as we have been using an average of 30 units per day. I took up a floorboard upstairs and took the attached picture. On the face of it, does the installation appear normal? Are there any building regs which would apply? The developer is denying any wrong doing.
 
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Hi, I have recently purchased a new build which has a ground source heat pump and underfloor heating throughout. I noticed that when it gets cold, the upstairs rooms take a long time to reheat. This has also generated some rather large bills as we have been using an average of 30 units per day. I took up a floorboard upstairs and took the attached picture. On the face of it, does the installation appear normal? Are there any building regs which would apply? The developer is denying any wrong doing.

Hi Dan please attempt to post up your photo again. From what you have said; it's strange having an air gap like you describe heated by a geothermal system. The two are not good bedfellows, effectively the thermal mass is heating air - if it's not in contact with the flooring, therefore, it needs to operate at a much higher temperature to transfer heat to the flooring & a geothermal system will operate at it's optimum at lower temperature.

So in summary; for geothermal systems you need a good thermal mass, operating at lower temperatures.

While it's far from ideal, it may not be the only problem you have with you system.
HTH
 
Thanks for the advice. I hope the image shows up now? You will see that the air gap is nearly 4cm... I guess what I need to know is how can this be fixed and is there any way we can make the developer accountable for the works? Has the developer failed to comply with building regs or something similar?
 
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That is more effective at heating the ceiling of the ground floor rather than floor of the first floor. I thought underfloor heating was supposed to be buried in something with a lot of thermal inertia (concrete) and as such, may not be suitable for upstairs?! You'd have to have the pipes on TOP of the floor boards, insulation underneath and infill material around it with carper, tiles or wood (suitable for UFH) on top. But that lot is all quite some thickness!

Nozzle
 
Ideally it would have a biscuit screed surroundi g the pipe usually 25mm. But without taking all the floor up this isnt really an option.
 
Most UFH systems for upstairs wooden floors use a metal spreader plate with the pipe located in a preformed channel in the middle and fitted immediately under, and in contact with, the floor!

In my view your system is not suitable for the job and clearly fitted by someone who has no experience of UFH at all.

Tony
 

Not uncommon system for first floor systems, however, it requires a high 'mean water' temperature as I stated.

It can also be installed like this & a weak 'pug/biscuit' mix poured over it, taking it to the top of the joists & therefore in direct contact with the flooring.
Again a poor second to a complete concrete floor & of course the additional weight of any 'pug' must be considered in structural calculations.

I can only reiterate; a geothermal system operates at an optimum lower mean water temperature, with the ground loops providing a steady 5degC to the heat pump.

However, someone may of considered the first floor heat loss & designed the UFH system, as installed, to be sufficient to heat the area. This can only be confirmed by the installer/designer.
HTH
 
Most UFH systems for upstairs wooden floors use a metal spreader plate with the pipe located in a preformed channel in the middle and fitted immediately under, and in contact with, the floor!

In my view your system is not suitable for the job and clearly fitted by someone who has no experience of UFH at all.

Tony

^^^^^This

The system shown is called "pipe and staples" where the pipe is fixed directly to the Insulation board, and a screed is then applied over the top, mainly used on ground floors due to construction methods and weight issues.

The way it has been installed is most inefficient, heating all the void before some heat may find its way into the room above. No wonder your bills are so high.

As Aglie says ' to work well, it should be made up as follows,
noggins set along the joist at the correct depth for the insulation board to sit in.
Aluminium spreader plates with a channel for the pipe to sit in.
When the floor is fitted, this should be in contact with the spreader plates so that the heat from the pipe transfers to the spreader plates and in turn to the floor.

The system you have got, in my opinion, is not correct for the application it is being used in.

It has either been done by someone who doesn't know what they are doing or the builder has done it as cheap as possible
 
Thanks for all the advice! Unfortunately it confirms my worst suspicions... Would anyone know if there is any standard installation guidelines that I can quote in order for the developer to step up and rectify the works? I really don't want him to get away with this!
 
Thanks for all the advice! Unfortunately it confirms my worst suspicions... Would anyone know if there is any standard installation guidelines that I can quote in order for the developer to step up and rectify the works? I really don't want him to get away with this!

As a starting point I would write / email the manufacturer of your system (you may find their name on the manifold or printed on the pipe) along with a few of the other leading manufacturers of UFH, asking their recommendations for installing UFH in a first floor, timber joisted floor.
 
Thanks for all the advice! Unfortunately it confirms my worst suspicions... Would anyone know if there is any standard installation guidelines that I can quote in order for the developer to step up and rectify the works? I really don't want him to get away with this!

Perhaps you could ask for the design details from the developer. Not many of the big names in the UFH market will do a design without knowing the full details, including the heat generating appliance.

It looks as if someone not very well informed has changed the appliance, without revising/changing the heat emitter for the first floor.
 

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