air power for motor vehicles the way forward

[Slogger]

compressed air will be the way to go for the future needs of our transport system


it may be only for short journeys at first 100 miles but there is a massive investment going into it which the governments of the oil producing countrys wont like and wont support

look http://www.theaircar.com/ this is the tip of the iceberg there are loads out there some already in production and being used in mexico

its a crying shame we havent done this already in the uk as some are dead set on fuel cell cars purely so we will go to garages to fill up

imagine filling up overnight in your own garage using the air compressor supplied with these cars

goverments are surely not going to get behind this > if they did they would be here now

the technology is simple 300 miles for £1.50 this will make the powers that be start to think about alternative taxation of the roads ie road tax road tolls congestion tax all will be used to make up the loss of revenue this will cause i nearly bought one for curiosity might still yet

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2281011.stm biggest thing i can see wrong with this one is its french

come on all you rich english gents get one of these on the road and your name will be in history

 

[kendor]

Have you heard how much noise small air tools make let alone something as large as a car!

 

[pipme]

Have you heard how much noise small air tools make let alone something as large as a car!

Oh yes .... But the car motor utilises pistons not extremely noisy turbine.

...Compressed air is expanded in four piston engines to provide power for vehicle propulsion. Compressed air is not a new energy carrier, but it is the first time that a modern compressed air vehicle has been designed. Compressed air cars have some positives attributes: air motors are small and lightweight for the power they produce, and also substantially cheaper; compressed air tanks can be refilled much faster than hydrogen tanks or batteries. They last almost indefinitely with any number of recharging cycles and without losing capacity. The engine can be made from lightweight aluminium because it is operated near ambient temperature....

Interesting ! But do not bother with video (x 2) not very illuminating !

 

[masona]

there is a massive investment going into it which the governments of the oil producing countrys wont like and wont support

When the electric car was being made, the oil company normally buy the company out to prevent them selling it and when, if, we run out of oil they will put the electric car back on the market, I'm afraid money talk and it's the root of all evil.

 

[ohmygodwhathaveyoudone]

all you really need is 4 politicions in the car and it will gone on for ever coz they are all full of hot air. but if you had one that run on s*** that would go even further

 

[felix]

imagine filling up overnight in your own garage using the air compressor supplied with these cars

One should always keep the second law of thermodynamics in mind when talking about energy. In simple terms entropy (a fancy word for disorder) is always increasing. If you want to increase the order of a system you must bring energy in from outside - and create even more disorder somewhere else. Electrical energy is well ordered, as is kinetic energy. Heat is not. Order costs so it pays not to waste it.

Imagine taking high grade electrical energy and using it to drive a compressor. You get some compressed air and loads of heat. Unless you use that heat around the house this is not an efficient use of expensively generated electricity.

PS: You can find more on this subject in the thread "hydrogen hot air"

 

[Slogger]

ah but it isnt about energy efficiency is it ? this is about costs penny for penny this idea take the mickey out of petrol cars and there related taxation

this is the way of the future ie nuclear power make it cleaner ( if we can)

we need more investment in this if for no other reason than to stick 2 fingers up at those that tax our fuel and say its for the good of the enviroment

the green tax ? is the biggest load of bull going we are being lied to about how much difference we can make ( someones got to start ) is what we hear i say let someone else start as the taxation we pay as fuel duty doesnt go to making gigantic air purifyers ? does it

hydrogen ? unless they let us make it ourselves which i doubt they would or even if we could is dangerous stuff and fuel cells are what the govenments want us to use as we have to go to garages to fill up

so why not make the hydrogen at sea and use it there and then to make electricty to power compressors to then power the vehicle via thermal expansion

third world countrys will use this no doubt as long as electrcity is easy to make

4 hours running the compressor give 150 miles at 65 mile and hour can anyone work out the cost of electricity used vs petrol costs vs enviromental costs

 

[pipme]

Same people will end up running the show and charging whatever they can extract ... Remember North sea oil ? We were gonna have cheapest fuel blah blah .... Yeah right !!
Even now... Victoria Oz.. ULP half our cost, diesel is less again.
LPG £0.70 per Imp Gallon !!

 

[Slogger]

lpg is doomed to be on the hit list they will find something about it that causes some sort of pollution and blam 4 quid a gallon sir thatll do nicely

 

[felix]

so why not make the hydrogen at sea and use it there and then to make electricty

Sorry Slogger but you've lost me there. I suppose you're going to use the hydrogen in fuel cells and you're going to make it at sea because there's lots of water handy. But how exactly do you propose to get the hydrogen out of the water????

I can see one way you might do it without using all the electricity from those fuel cells (and more) - use a giant mirror to focus sunlight onto some water and heat it up to about 6000K. At this temperature water splits. You cool the resulting plasma by plunging it into the ocean - that's the cold side of your heat engine - and some (though not all) of the atoms will combine into hydrogen and oxygen molecules.

To make this plan work you will need a container for your plasma. This, as anybody working on nuclear fusion will tell you, will not be easy to find! There is another way. Plants have been quietly using sunlight to split the oxygen out of water for 600 million years. It's a shame they don't make hydrogen as well but you can't have everything. You'll just have to get those fuel cells to run on sugar instead.

 

[Slogger]

hmm and i was under the understanding we could get it out by using disimialar metals or precious metal plates to seperate the gas and burn in asap no storing as hydrogen strored would be a target for the bad guys



is there enought research going into viable alternatives ? or will it be the case of do it when we really have to

aside from this i go back to my original request from one of you maths geniuses do them sums see what the costs for running a compressor for 4 hours is vs petrol

 

[pipme]

"ave to book 'im Thermo that is deffo straight through .... "

 

[AdamW]

Great link Slogger.

LPG is currently cheaper because the government pledged to charge it at a lower rate of tax (IIRC 50% that of petrol), but they only pledged it for a fixed period of time. So, LPG will shoot or creep up in price, and will probably end up charged at a suitable percentage of petrol price to account for the slightly lower energy density.

Compressed air is just another way of storing energy. The disadvantage of batteries is that they are quite heavy, even with modern lithium polymer cells. So, an electric car often ends up very heavy in order to have a specified range. Every electric conversion I've seen on the net weighs a good few hundred kilos more than the original petrol car. But, a tank full of compressed air (300 bar in this case, or a bit over 4200 psi) is relatively lightweight. If you have a clean source of electricity then you can run your compressor without pollution. China has the Three Gorges dam, Egypt has the Aswan dam, there is another in Africa that is on the tip of my tongue... OK, the other environmental effects of hydroelectric are often significant, but there is no denying that it is clean energy.

One more advantage: every single battery technology I know of, that is suitable for use in a car, involves toxic metals. Lead, nickel, cadmium, lithium, zinc, all are dangerous if inhaled or ingested at anything more than trace levels. Which means if there is an accident or the car is scrapped, you have to do something with all that waste toxic material. Now, whilst the compressor might produce small quantities of hazardous dust from the motor, and the air exhausting the car might have a small amount of lubricant in it, you never have to deal with the best part of a ton of toxic metals every time you come to scrap a car!

Saying all that, I'm not sure I would like to have a tank full of a 300 bar pressurised gas in the event of a collision. It freaks me out more than the idea of 10 gallons of highly-volatile fuel.

 

[AdamW]

Oooh, I've just thought of another benefit.

The air comes out of the engine at about -20 celsius. Why not harness this cold efflux to form part of a climate control system? Blow air over the exhaust pipe, into the cabin, and you can sit chilly cold even on the hottest of days!

Three-stage expansion with reheating

Hey, it's a triple-expansion engine! Steam enthusiasts will be pleased!

 

[felix]

If you have a clean source of electricity then you can run your compressor without pollution.

That does make a difference. The next improvement is to harness all the waste heat from the compressor by tying it into your domestic heating/hot water system.

It freaks me out more than the idea of 10 gallons of highly-volatile fuel.

Not nearly as much as the idea of untaxable fuel must be freaking out HMG!!! How will they get round this one I wonder? A whopping extra road tax on air powered cars or maybe an annual license fee for compressors. I suspect that they'll choose the latter option because they can do it by stealth. All compressors will have to have a government issued safety certificate.

If they do choose the latter option will they have compressor detector vans driving around - and will anybody who doesn't have a license for their non-existent compressor get a stream of threatening letters demanding to know why not?

At the end of the day the only way to legally avoid fuel tax is to keep one step ahead. Be different. Use something nobody else has thought of yet. And always remember that universal rule: The Lord giveth and the Government taketh away!