Appliance in bathroom

[Johnking]

I have my washing machine in a large cupboard in the bathroom, more than 2m from any zones. The wire goes through the wall to a socket on the landing. This means that if I need to pull out the machine for some reason, I have to faff around feeding the plug through the wall. Is there any way I could modify this setup so that I could more easily unplug the washer?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Yes, do whatever you like in a cupboard with a door in a bathroom.

 

[Johnking]

Yes, do whatever you like in a cupboard with a door in a bathroom.

So could I screw an extension socket to the wall behind the washer and feed that through the wall instead? The distance from the plug to the edge of the shower would be 2.8m. The cupboard is full room height with a closing door I built it from MDF sheet.

 

[EFLImpudence]

So could I screw an extension socket to the wall behind the washer and feed that through the wall instead?

Yes.

The distance from the plug to the edge of the shower would be 2.8m. The cupboard is full room height with a closing door I built it from MDF sheet.

It doesn't matter what the distance is, a cupboard like that is regarded as separate from the bathroom.

 

[Tigercubrider]

If you feel that you know what you are doing you could wire a proper spur off the landing socket and use trunking plus a surface mounted socket.
You're not supposed to "spur off a spur" but a landing socket is probably not used for anything day to day?

Better IMHO than an extension lead.

 

[ericmark]

This has been raised not long ago, if the cupboard that the washing machine is in can be locked or needs some other tool for access then you can have a socket, but as to when it forms another room does not seem to be so clear, we have a definition for habitable room, and occupiable room, but not simply a room.

We have sizes with 2.25 meters high being limit to bathroom regulations, but the 3 meter rule for a socket in a bathroom is not the same as the 0.6 meters that defines zone 2 after zone 1 ends.

But first catch the monkey. So if there is no requirement for some one to do an EICR, and no one gets injured who will know if the rules are broken? Where the problem lies is when rented property and some one needs to complete an EICR, even then it is potential danger not non compliance with regulations.

The 3 meter rule in a bathroom replaced the 3 meter rule in a bedroom for a shower, basic idea is if there is a shower in the bedroom a socket needs to be over 3 meters from the shower.

However it is the definition of a room, last house I had a dinning room and living room separated by an arch, no door, so clearly a door is not required to make it into a room, and the regulations don't refer to a room they refer to a location.

walls with or without windows, doors, floors and fixed partitions may be taken into account where these effectively limit the extent of locations containing a bath or shower as well as their zones.

So it seems doors count but curtains don't! so is this a shower room, and outside the glass partition is not part of the bathroom assuming no bath? Since that would be likely what would be installed in a bedroom, that would mean no need for 3 meter rule in a bedroom, the shower is considered as being a separate room off the bedroom. But some how can't see the LABC agreeing with that, so if that shower cubical is not considered a room, neither is a cupboard in a bathroom with a washing machine in it considered as a separate room.

As said if safe, i.e. unlikely to get wet, and RCD protected then for owner occupied who cares, just do it, but if some one needs to inspect and write a report, not so sure, I was told off by LABC for not notifying them that a toilet and pantry had been turned into a wet room, seems it need notifying so would assume same in reverse, if you turn a space that was a bathroom into a room for some other use, they need notifying. In real terms I would only do it when they are going to find out anyway, however if I was renting a house with a washing machine in the bathroom I would not fit a plug and socket anywhere that could be considered a bathroom, unless no other option, and then even if never actually locked, I would put a lock on cupboard door.

I will be interested to see what others say, the main point is if they found it when doing an EICR would it get a code C2?

 

[Tigercubrider]

another option is to leave it as it is, but use a suitable 3 pin inline connector to extend the mains cable.
This would allow you to pull the machine forwards but not have a pluggable connection inside the room.

A 3 pin pluggable cable like a lawn mower is normally 10A and a washing machine is 13A so a pluggable connector might not be possible unless you went for a ceeform style which is OTT

 

[Johnking]

another option is to leave it as it is, but use a suitable 3 pin inline connector to extend the mains cable.
This would allow you to pull the machine forwards but not have a pluggable connection inside the room.

A 3 pin pluggable cable like a lawn mower is normally 10A and a washing machine is 13A so a pluggable connector might not be possible unless you went for a ceeform style which is OTT

I did also consider just extending the cable to about 3x its length, not sure I haven't just done that!

E: found this https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/KBJB0011.html

 

[Johnking]

This has been raised not long ago, if the cupboard that the washing machine is in can be locked or needs some other tool for access then you can have a socket, but as to when it forms another room does not seem to be so clear, we have a definition for habitable room, and occupiable room, but not simply a room.

We have sizes with 2.25 meters high being limit to bathroom regulations, but the 3 meter rule for a socket in a bathroom is not the same as the 0.6 meters that defines zone 2 after zone 1 ends.

But first catch the monkey. So if there is no requirement for some one to do an EICR, and no one gets injured who will know if the rules are broken? Where the problem lies is when rented property and some one needs to complete an EICR, even then it is potential danger not non compliance with regulations.

The 3 meter rule in a bathroom replaced the 3 meter rule in a bedroom for a shower, basic idea is if there is a shower in the bedroom a socket needs to be over 3 meters from the shower.

However it is the definition of a room, last house I had a dinning room and living room separated by an arch, no door, so clearly a door is not required to make it into a room, and the regulations don't refer to a room they refer to a location.



So it seems doors count but curtains don't! so is this View attachment 219603 a shower room, and outside the glass partition is not part of the bathroom assuming no bath? Since that would be likely what would be installed in a bedroom, that would mean no need for 3 meter rule in a bedroom, the shower is considered as being a separate room off the bedroom. But some how can't see the LABC agreeing with that, so if that shower cubical is not considered a room, neither is a cupboard in a bathroom with a washing machine in it considered as a separate room.

As said if safe, i.e. unlikely to get wet, and RCD protected then for owner occupied who cares, just do it, but if some one needs to inspect and write a report, not so sure, I was told off by LABC for not notifying them that a toilet and pantry had been turned into a wet room, seems it need notifying so would assume same in reverse, if you turn a space that was a bathroom into a room for some other use, they need notifying. In real terms I would only do it when they are going to find out anyway, however if I was renting a house with a washing machine in the bathroom I would not fit a plug and socket anywhere that could be considered a bathroom, unless no other option, and then even if never actually locked, I would put a lock on cupboard door.

I will be interested to see what others say, the main point is if they found it when doing an EICR would it get a code C2?

That's really interesting, thanks. It seems like whatever regulations you look at there are incomplete definitions. I can easily put a lock on the cupboard door. I'm owner-occupier so it doesn't need inspecting, but of course safety is my first concern, then insurance.

 

[Johnking]

If you feel that you know what you are doing you could wire a proper spur off the landing socket and use trunking plus a surface mounted socket.
You're not supposed to "spur off a spur" but a landing socket is probably not used for anything day to day?

Better IMHO than an extension lead.

The landing socket is on the ring and just used for the vacuum cleaner sometimes, so this could work.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I stand by what I wrote.


It might be an anomaly but what if the cupboard were much bigger and was a bedroom, making the bathroom en-suite?

Would it not be allowed to have a socket outside the bathroom door?

 

[JohnW2]

This has been raised not long ago, if the cupboard that the washing machine is in can be locked or needs some other tool for access then you can have a socket ...

I'm not quite sure where that (the bits about locks and tools) comes from - perhaps you can enlighten me?

... but as to when it forms another room does not seem to be so clear, we have a definition for habitable room, and occupiable room, but not simply a room.

That's true and, in the absence of a formal definition, I think one has to rely on common sense and 'everyday use' of the term. The main 'grey areas' are likely to be between 'a small room' and 'a large cupboard', but I don't think the distinction between the two is going to be of any importance in relation to the issues we're discussing.

I would personally say that to qualify as a 'room' (or even a cupboard) the only real requirements are that it should have a solid door and that there are no openings into it (from other rooms) other than the door.

However it is the definition of a room, last house I had a dinning room and living room separated by an arch, no door, so clearly a door is not required to make it into a room, and the regulations don't refer to a room they refer to a location.

I think you've invented your own definition there. If it were a permanent (unclosable) opening between the two areas, I think that many/most people would call that a single room (e.g. "lounge-diner") and not two rooms.

By the same token, I do not think that one could sensibly argue that having some sort of partial partition containing a permanent opening could turn a bathroom into 'two rooms', such that a bath/shower on one side of the partition would not be 'in' the other part, so that 'other part' would have no restrictions in relation to electrical things 'in a room with bath or shower'.

As I recently wrote, I think we have to consider the (presumed) intent/spirit of the '3 metre rule', which is presumably intended to make it less likely that people will use a 'plugged in appliance' whilst in the bath or shower - and a partial partition with an opening would certainly not achieve that. As I recently wrote, it would even 'make some sense' for there to be a prohibition of sockets outside of a 'room containing a bath or shower' which were within 3m 'as the cable flies' of a bath or shower within the room.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Tigercubrider]

The landing socket is on the ring and just used for the vacuum cleaner sometimes, so this could work.

If the landing socket is a ring, it could be used to change the washing machine socket to be included into the ring?

Depends on the outcome of the legality discussion.

 

[ericmark]

We see in BS 7671 the reference many times "to by the use of a key or tool," in some cases it also says password, and phrases like "Spaces under the bath accessible only with the use of a tool are outside the zones." in real terms we all know you can't assess the socket without removing the washing machine so it is safe, you can fit lids on the sockets with locks or even a chock in front of washing machine wheel held with a screw so you need a screwdriver to take it off before you can get the washing machine out. However it is all unnecessary as your owner occupier so no one is going to get upset about what you are doing.

When I wrote I did not know owner occupier, so do as you like.