Backup generator

On the N-E connection question, that came from here: ... Relevant extract below (my emphasis).
"Most buildings now have an RCD built into the consumer unit. This is configured to operate from the mains supply with an earthed neutral, and not from a generator with a floating earth. To utilize this protection device, it is necessary to modify the generator so that it is configured in the same way as the mains supply.
Indeed - that's exactly what I wrote.
.... This is a simple modification for a qualified electrician, involving adding a link wire from the neutral terminal to the earth terminal. It is recommended to make this connection in the plug that is to be used to connect to the generator.
As I (and also Simon) said, that is neither the usual, nor a desirable, way to earth the neutral side of the genny output. It should really be done within the generator, not in a plug. As I said, it is crucial for you to determine what, if anything, is connected to the 'earth terminals' (e.g. of output socket) within your generator before you even think of connecting N and E (anywhere).
...This ensures that the generator is unmodified when it is disconnected from the house, and therefore remains safe.
I'm not sure in what sense they are suggesting that a generator would become 'unsafe' if it had an internal N-E link. Generators are (should!) rarely used with 'floating' outputs.
...The plug should be labeled “Do not connect to mains: Neutral-Earth link fitted”. The lead between the generator and the transfer switch is not protected by the RCD, it is therefore recommended to use a steel armored cable for this connection. Finally a local low-impedance earth spike needs to be installed.
The labelling would certainly reduce the hazard to some extent, but I still would not personally advocate that approach. What they say about the SWA is correct as is (as you know) what they say about an 'earth spike'.
Have I misunderstood that?
Probably not, but I would personally say that the advice being given is not very wise What do others think?
Thanks for link to the small fused switch. That would do the job but I suppose would need an intermediate metal box to terminate the SWA.
Yes, it probably would, but that could be a pretty small box so that, even together, I imagine that that plus the MSF100 would be a lot smaller than your current switchfuse.

Kind Regards, John
 
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On the N-E connection question, that came from here:

https://www.justgenerators.co.uk/generator-faq.html
https://www.justgenerators.co.uk/generator-faq.html
There are a few bits in there that I don't completely agree with. For starters, I think the statement that generator outputs are always floating is not always true given previous discussions of the effects of having the centre tap of the 110-0-110 winding earthed - and putting 55V onto the neutral.

Relevant extract below (my emphasis).

Most buildings now have an RCD built into the consumer unit. This is configured to operate from the mains supply with an earthed neutral, and not from a generator with a floating earth. To utilize this protection device, it is necessary to modify the generator so that it is configured in the same way as the mains supply. This is a simple modification for a qualified electrician, involving adding a link wire from the neutral terminal to the earth terminal. It is recommended to make this connection in the plug that is to be used to connect to the generator. This ensures that the generator is unmodified when it is disconnected from the house, and therefore remains safe.

The plug should be labeled “Do not connect to mains: Neutral-Earth link fitted”. The lead between the generator and the transfer switch is not protected by the RCD, it is therefore recommended to use a steel armored cable for this connection. Finally a local low-impedance earth spike needs to be installed.

Have I misunderstood that?
I don't think you've misunderstood, but I disagree with it - or at least it's not well articulated.
The RCDs in the house really don't care about earthed neutrals - they only measure imbalance between L & N currents. With a truly floating supply, the issue is that someone could touch a "live" conductor, and not enough current would flow to trip the RCD - but that's demonstrating the safety value of a floating (IT) supply.

The real risk is that without an earthed neutral, a L-E fault wouldn't trip the over current protection (OCP). Instead, the live would become earthed, and then the neutral is "live". That in itself is not dangerous as neutral conductors have to be protected to the same extent as phase conductors and it should not be possible to touch anything "live".

Where it gets interesting is when there's a second fault (e.g. a N-E fault) in a different circuit. You then have a fault path which going via the OCP in the phase conductor of one circuit and the neutral conductor of a different circuit. Lets say the first is a 32A ring final and the second is in a lighting circuit. You now have fault current from a 32A circuit passing through wiring designed for a 6A circuit which isn't ideal to say the least. With RCBO protected circuits or circuits on different RCDs in a split board, both would then trip. But an RCD serving both would not trip. Depending on the characteristics of the connected generator, it's not guaranteed that a 32A breaker would trip (in a timely manner, or at all) under such conditions.

That's why that page simply states the simplistic advice that the genny neutral must be earthed. Not because it must, but because it would be too complicated to explain the nuances of the different possibilities.

Clearly it's a lot easier if the genny is hardwired - you simply design the whole setup and wire the genny accordingly. But when it's a plug in connection, you need to account for what someone might come along and do in the future - clearly it would be "undesirable" to link N&E on the installation side of the power inlet to make any floating genny safe, given that it would cause a short for a centre-tap-earthed genny. And with a plug in connection, you cannot assume that the genny isn't floating.
Perhaps a "soft earth" (say, incandescent light bulb) between N&E which would glow dimly (55V) with a CTE genny, but provide enough current to trip an RCD with a floating genny ?


These questions are of interest to me as I intend adding an inlet and C/O switch at home, and have made the provision at church (C/O switch installed during other works, but inlet not yet connected). At home I have a reasonable degree of control as long as my faculties remain; but at church, and at home if I'm not around (or all there) to supervise then whatever I do needs to be safe with the "untrained person working on 'the plug fits so it must be OK'" theory of electrics.
 
Clearly it's a lot easier if the genny is hardwired - you simply design the whole setup and wire the genny accordingly. But when it's a plug in connection, you need to account for what someone might come along and do in the future - clearly it would be "undesirable" to link N&E on the installation side of the power inlet to make any floating genny safe, given that it would cause a short for a centre-tap-earthed genny. And with a plug in connection, you cannot assume that the genny isn't floating.

Many thanks Simon and John. It seems to me I should only try to make 'this' genny safe to use. I am the only person who would be at all likely to operate the genny. If I sell the house, it may or may not include the generator. If not, I will place a suitable warning on the inlet/changover switch to the effect that professional advice should be sought before connecting an external generator.

Distilling what you and JohnW2 have written, I think I understand as follows:

1. If my genny does not have a centre tap earth (i.e. an internal N-E link) then the advice to make a N-E link is correct.
2. In any event, a suitable earth rod should be installed and connected to the genny's earthing point (which is on the panel).
3. You recommend to install a suitable RCBO between the inlet and the C/O switch.

The following questions then occur:

A) Below is a pic of the wiring diagram in the genny's operating manual (sorry I can't seem to get it correctly oriented). It looks to me (but I'm not sure) that a centre tap earth or N-E link is NOT shown. Any comment on that question? Perhaps better to test for that (with a multimeter) on the genny itself?. Can you guide me on that?

Hyundai DHY8000SELR wiring diagram.jpg

B) Assuming that a N-E link is needed, is the best place to do that in the plug at one end or the other of the connection lead, which is then labelled as (suggested in the generator FAQs) “Do not connect to mains: Neutral-Earth link fitted”. Or in the inlet itself? Or in the genny?

C) I have worked out that a 7-module, metal DIN rail box can be mounted in place of the 60A switch fuse (see pic below). 4 modules are needed for the changeover switch and I had in mind a 63A fuse holder (1 module) and 63A main switch (2 modules) taking tyhe remaining space. I'm concerned that finding space for a separate RCBO will be tricky. So, is a possible answer to substitute a 63A 2 pole RCD to provide overcurrent protection and to operate as the main switch? If I am thinking this through correctly, the fuse will protect the SWA cable when connected to DNO supply and the RCD will provide fault protection (including the connecting lead) when the connected to the generator supply.

[edit]I mean the RCD to provide fault protection (including the connecting cable). The fuse will provide overcurrent protection in both operating modes.

Meter layout.jpg
 
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So, is a possible answer to substitute a 63A 2 pole RCD to provide overcurrent protection and to operate as the main switch?

NO, absolutely not. RCDs do not provide over current protection. They protect against unbalance.
 
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As above re the RCD. How good is the overload protection built in to your generator- speaking from experience small sets don't like a rapidly applied excessive load and will tend (from experience) to suffer terminal failure (not explosive disassembly but general large-scale failure to function). Just not sure that a fuse will react fast enough to protect the supply....
 
NO, absolutely not. RCDs do not provide over current protection. They protect against unbalance.
Yes, I corrected that. The fuse would be the OCD for the SWA. There is a breaker on board the genny that should protect the connection cable (it should trip if load exceeds the genny's capacity, which is 25A. I suggested the 2-pole RCD in place of the RCBO recommended by Simon and to be the main switch to isolate the DBs in the garage.
 
As above re the RCD. How good is the overload protection built in to your generator- speaking from experience small sets don't like a rapidly applied excessive load and will tend (from experience) to suffer terminal failure (not explosive disassembly but general large-scale failure to function). Just not sure that a fuse will react fast enough to protect the supply....
Maybe my experience is atypical, but the effect I've most often seen (with small gennys) of a "rapidly applied excessive load" is that the engine has stalled (solving the problem), before any electrical OPD has operated.

Kind Regards, John
 
Maybe my experience is atypical, but the effect I've most often seen (with small gennys) of a "rapidly applied excessive load" is that the engine has stalled (solving the problem), before any electrical OPD has operated.

Kind Regards, John
Mine was a small inverter gennie that some knob decided would power a MIG welder. Something went clang inside it & it refused to restart (it was still running but not generating any power). Didn't investigate deeply cos it was under guarantee, took it back and said nowt about MIG welders :)
 
Mine was a small inverter gennie that some knob decided would power a MIG welder. Something went clang inside it & it refused to restart (it was still running but not generating any power). Didn't investigate deeply cos it was under guarantee, took it back and said nowt about MIG welders :)
Ah, that rather moves the goalposts - invertor gennies are all very well but, unlike their ultra-simple predecessors, they have electronics which can blow up!

Kind Regards, John
 
NO, absolutely not. RCDs do not provide over current protection. They protect against unbalance.
Rather than just the negative answer that winny is good at, I'll agree RCD's do not offer over current protection however a 63A 2 pole RCBO will offer the 63A over current protection, 30mA RCD protection AND the 2P isolation... all in the space of 2 modules.

Similar protection is provided by a 63A fuse and a RCD, AS SUGGESTED BY OP unless I have misunderstood the proposal.
 
A solution to the N-E ink issue could be to make the link in the cable but use a 'non standard' connectors such as 4 pole but it will require changing or adding a concector on the genset.
 
A solution to the N-E ink issue could be to make the link in the cable but use a 'non standard' connectors such as 4 pole but it will require changing or adding a concector on the genset.

Is the purpose of that to mitigate against the lead being used in a setting where the N-E link isn't needed?
 
Is the purpose of that to mitigate against the lead being used in a setting where the N-E link isn't needed?
Yes that's correct and also to prevent the issue with a different genset with a 55V N-E.
This shows the general format, I show it with a selection of dark green wires to show different options which have been discussed:
upload_2022-3-3_10-9-46.png

That way the cable can't be used for anything else including for the wrong genset.
 
Rather than just the negative answer that winny is good at, I'll agree RCD's do not offer over current protection however a 63A 2 pole RCBO will offer the 63A over current protection, 30mA RCD protection AND the 2P isolation... all in the space of 2 modules.

Similar protection is provided by a 63A fuse and a RCD, AS SUGGESTED BY OP unless I have misunderstood the proposal.
Thanks Sunray and yes, I was thinking of a 2P RCD + 63A fuse. I haven't yet found a 2P 63A RCBO.

Below is a wiring diagram of what I envisage based on the discussions so far. Couple of NBs:

(1) The earth connection from the genny to MET will be via the 32A connecting lead so not permanent.
(2) I haven't yet found a 2P 63A RCBO but no problem with a 63A RCD. So may revert to the RCD + 63A fuse alternative.

I have two further questions:

A) I presume the RCD/RCBO should be type AC?
B) It seems logical to place the RCD and fuse with the RCD closest to the genny.

Any further comments?

Ref. A) above, this is a 63A RCD that (from description) can also be used as an isolator but doesn't indicate what type it is - A/AC/F etc.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYWRS63slash2.html

Genny installation wiring diagram v1.jpg
 
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