Bathroom boiler electrics and electric mirror

[jacko555]

Bathroom has the boiler in a floorstanding cupboard attached to the wall.

It was a wetroom, however, have installed a bath and shower cubicle next.

I'm preparing to build stud walls so wifey can have recessed niches along the bath, hide services etc.

I will move the floorstanding cupboard forward, build the stud wall and re-attach the cupboard to it. I will terminate the wall just inside the cupboard as the boiler is attached to the plaster. It just means the cupboard will be deeper than it looks on the outside.

Anyhow:

I've found whoever installed the boiler (in 2018) has taken a power feed from somewhere under the floor, into a switched fused spur, which is laying loose on the floor under the cupboard.

Power from here goes to a Honeywell wireless receiver, which is also laying loose on the floor. Power from this goes to the boiler.

My first question is surely this is unsafe, and both units should be screwed to the wall inside of the cupboard. Basically not on the floor of a wetroom. Are there any rules about placement within the cupboard (e.g., should they be a certain height off the floor, or, not directly under the boiler)

Second question:

Wifey, as a surprise, purchased an electric touch screen light up mirror with defogger. This is mains powered. I can route cable behind the stud wall to the cupboard (v.short run).

Can I safely daisy chain an rcd fused spur, from the existing one feeding the boiler, and it be considered "safe" for bathroom use?

Alternatively, I can run the power cable for the mirror straight down to the pantry, and connect an rcd fused spur there.

Or is the whole setup a death trap and time to pay someone to do it.

Any advice welcome.

 

[ericmark]

When is an area classed as another room? The pictures given as to safe zones stop at doors and walls, so where the boiler is may be not classed as a bathroom.

Daft I know, but daughters wet room in Turkey would not be classed as a bathroom in UK, as no shower head and no bath, so using UK rules she would be allowed sockets in the wet room, clearly she has not got any, but some times you must use common sense not the rule book.

The loose items, if not fixed then would need cable clamps, and I think likely no cable clamps on the switched spur so it would not comply, however I have seen many times in an airing cupboard where the cylinder floor is elevated that junction boxes and the like are screwed to the floor.

There are rules as to items being suitable for the environment, but you can get 13 amp sockets designed to be let into the floor.

It does sound as if some one never finished the job, one of those I finish that off tomorrow, and tomorrow never comes, the guy has been sent some where else instead. I know of jobs like that, boss has rung up in evening and said tomorrow I want you to go to xzy, Billy and finish off at abc and Billy was unaware of some items needing completing.

Yes it needs correcting, and items do need fixing to something to stop cables being pulled out of the items on floor, but as to if dangerous without pictures can't really comment. It may be safe, it may be near criminal, but without pictures or being there I can't say.

 

[Taylortwocities]

The boiler, FCU and the receiver are ok inside the cupboard assuming it has a door on it!
Don't think of adding a 13A socket in there, that is not allowed!
MAke sure that the circuit powering this lot is protected by an RCD - probably there's on in your consumer unit?

For the mirror, the best power is to run this from the bathroom lights. Then the demist isn't left to run 24x7! AGain, this circuit needs RCD protection.

 

[winston1]

Wifey, as a surprise, purchased an electric touch screen light up mirror with defogger. This is mains powered. I can route cable behind the stud wall to the cupboard (v.short run).

Can I safely daisy chain an rcd fused spur, from the existing one feeding the boiler, and it be considered "safe" for bathroom use?

Alternatively, I can run the power cable for the mirror straight down to the pantry, and connect an rcd fused spur there.

Or is the whole setup a death trap and time to pay someone to do it.

Any advice welcome.

You can run it from the same fused spur as the boiler if you like. You don’t need a second FCU in line and you won’t need an RCD if there is already RCD protection in the CU.

You could also run it down to the pantry. If you connect it to the lighting circuit there no FCU required and no RCD required if already RCD protection in the CU.

 

[jacko555]

The boiler, FCU and the receiver are ok inside the cupboard assuming it has a door on it

Yes, has a door. The boiler (a Worcester) has a label on it saying it's designed to be used in an enclosed area and door shouldn't be left open.

MAke sure that the circuit powering this lot is protected by an RCD - probably there's on in your consumer unit

No. CU is all MCB, apart from a rcbo for an external socket.

For the mirror, the best power is to run this from the bathroom lights. Then the demist isn't left to run 24x7! AGain, this circuit needs RCD protection.

Wife wants it to run independently from the lights (its a glowing led affair).
Nuts.

Don't think of adding a 13A socket in there, that is not allowed!

Not gonna do that. I need to add an RCD so was planning for an Rcd spur off something.

You can run if from the same fused spur as the boiler if you like. You don’t need a second FCU in line and you won’t need an RCD if there is already RCD protection in the CU.

You could also run it down to the pantry. If you connect it to the lighting circuit there no FCU required and no RCD required if already RCD protection in the CU

As above, no RCD on anything apart from the external socket.

Maybe it would be best to replace the existing fused spur feeding the boiler with an RCD spur, and feed the bpiler and mirror from that?

 

[yorkspark]

Maybe it would be best to replace the existing fused spur feeding the boiler with an RCD spur, and feed the bpiler and mirror from that?

Under the 18th edition, rcd sockets and rcd spurs to bs7288 are no longer allowed to be used unless they are on a circuit already protected by an rcd/rcbo so effectively they are an obsolete product and a non compliance and have been removed from appendix 1 of bs7671.
The problem is the wording of bs7288 requiring srcd's to have upfront protection, and also there contact separation isn't suitable to provide safe isolation, and until bs7288 is re-written or the product altered, then they will remain an overpriced obsolete product.

 

[jacko555]

Under the 18th edition, rcd sockets and rcd spurs to bs7288 are no longer allowed to be used unless they are on a circuit already protected by an rcd/rcbo so effectively they are an obsolete product and a non compliance and have been removed from appendix 1 of bs7671.
The problem is the wording of bs7288 requiring srcd's to have upfront protection, and also there contact separation isn't suitable to provide safe isolation, and until bs7288 is re-written or the product altered, then they will remain an overpriced obsolete product

So it sounds like the only way to be compliant, would be to power the mirror from the one rcbo circuit (powers the outside sockets).

However, if I was installing this before the 18th edition (july 2018?) it would have been compliant to use an rcd spur.

I inherited the wiring in the house, and have narrowed it down to being rewired between 2000 to 2006.

What would you do, if this were you? I guess options are:
1) use a, now considered obsolete, rcd spur
2) spur from the one mcbo circuit
3) get the cu upgraded / rcd fitted for a dedicated mirror circuit
4) something else?

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

As I understand it the only reason rcd spurs are not allowed is because they got left out by accident. I would not let my own installation convenience be affected by a mistake which I understand is intended to be fixed in the long term. It is logical nonsense. Just saying.

 

[jacko555]

It may be safe, it may be near criminal, but without pictures or being there I can't say

Spur below, but loose, under bottom shelf. Cannot be bothered to take apart to demo, but pic shows it loose and the cable management.
Both items had been stuffed down there, out of sight

 

[jacko555]

As I understand it the only reason rcd spurs are not allowed is because they got left out by accident

Can I take that as a vote for rcd spur in boiler cupboard?

 

[Taylortwocities]

Not safe. Both units should be attached to the wall, and the cables cleated.

The way they have been left, there is nothing to stop the cables being pulled out of the terminations.

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

Can I take that as a vote for rcd spur in boiler cupboard?

Yes. Subject to fixing things as per TTC's observation.

 

[winston1]

Under the 18th edition, rcd sockets and rcd spurs to bs7288 are no longer allowed to be used unless they are on a circuit already protected by an rcd/rcbo so effectively they are an obsolete product and a non compliance and have been removed from appendix 1

Seems to be yet another silly reg. So they are not allowed except where they are not necessary.

 

[yorkspark]

Seems to be yet another silly reg. So they are not allowed except where they are not necessary

Except it's not a reg, they have been removed from bs7671. They are non-compliant as do not meet the requirements for additional protection under bs7671 and the contact seperation is inadequate and cannot meet requirements for safe isolation. In order for them to be used again standalone, the bs7288 will require an update and all srcd's will need modifications made before they can comply

 

[yorkspark]

As I understand it the only reason rcd spurs are not allowed is because they got left out by accident. I would not let my own installation convenience be affected by a mistake which I understand is intended to be fixed in the long term. It is logical nonsense. Just saying

It isn't nonsense, they have been omitted because they no longer meet the standards, and the only way they will go back in bs7671 is by bs7288 been reworded, and the srcd's design been modified, so no, it isn't a mistake, it's because they are non-compliant for additional protection and safe isolation unless backed up by an rcd/rcbo. So if you want to install substandard equipment contrary to bs7671 crack on