Bed frame construction from MDF and wood

[willow5]

I want to make a bed frame out of MDF or MFC to match a headboard that I am also making but I am struggling with these corner pieces in the design (see attached image). I understand these are made from real beech wood for structural integrity and sprayed to match the melamine finish (Egger melamine) but no idea how to go about this. Is this a specialist job? The straight pieces seem ok but these corner pieces are quite difficult for me at least. If I go to a timber yard which has a cutting facility, what should I be asking them for? Is it even possible to get a real beech wood to match a melamine finish?
I know this image is primitive but please try to imagine straight pieces connecting at each end to make the right angle..
Thanks in advance for any advice...

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I want to make a bed frame out of MDF or MFC to match a headboard that I am also making but I am struggling with these corner pieces in the design (see attached image).

I'm sorry to say this, but other than for small child sized beds neither MR-MDF nor MFC has sufficient structural strength or integrity on it's own to form a long-lasting bed frame even in normal domestic usage IMHO. Far better is to utilise softwood framing elements behind the visible boards to give the structure the required level of structural strength especially as there will be a need to support the matress whilst allowing the matress to breathe (the reason why softwood slates tend to be utilised). You additionally have the problem of dealing with the unfinished edges of MR-MDF or MDF which straight off the saw have razor-sharp edges. Do you inten to edge band these edges, or are you looking at a more durable and smoother alternative such as plastic T-strip (as used in the caravan trades) or possibly a bull-nose routed edge (MR-MDF only)?

I understand these are made from real beech wood for structural integrity and sprayed to match the melamine finish (Egger melamine) but no idea how to go about this. Is this a specialist job?

Those pieces appear to be simple quadrant pieces and are generally routed, jig saw sawn or band sawn to shape as required. You may struggle to find a yard prepared to do the job - but a small joiners shop would probably be a far better bet IMHO

Is it even possible to get a real beech wood to match a melamine finish?

You'll possibly get a nearish match, but you can always tell the melamine from the timber. IMHO it is better to consider commercially available bed connector sets - they are hidden and so never seen, but they are infinitely easier to use and being steel are extremely durable

 

[willow5]

Thank you so much for your advice Jobandknock....yes I was also concerned about the structural integrity of doing this purely out of MDF or MFC. What softwood would you recommend I use behind the MDF or MFC to give it the necessary support bearing in mind it could be holding a queen sized mattress and 2 adults at full capacity....

Do you know of any decent joiners in the middlesex area of greater London who could fabricate these quadrants? What is the radius likely to be? Also how do I get the matching finish to the melamine wood grain? What stains do I use use for example?

 

[Deleted member 174758]

It is generally accepted that the best and cheapest way to support a matress whilst allowing it to "breathe" is to support it on unfinished softwood slats. Leaving the slats untreated seems to reduce any tendency to mark the matress as well as reducing any effects of moisture (e.g. potential mildew, etc). It is also the accepted approach that you cannot exceed about 1m in length for slats without experiencing support issues so your support would need to be, in effect, two slat frames supported down both sides of the bed with a central support:

Those support battens, at about 3 x 2in (70 x 44mm) give you a fair amount of strength and when connected to a bedhead and a toe board can form a substantial part of the bed structure:

Unfortunately three 3 x 2 in softwood aren't quite rigid enough to carry the full weight of a matress and tw adults without flexing in the middle somewhat so a deeper side rail is needed to make the outer battens more rigid:

and to give extra support in the middle one or two vertical legs must be added (screwed) to the centre batten (viewed from beneath):

The issue is how to fix the structure together. The outer battens are simply glued and screwed to the insides of the outer rails. The rails are fixed to the bed head and toe board using simple steel bed connectors. There are a huge number of these around. but take a look here to get an idea of one approach. The softwood slats need to be connected together and constantly spaced - for this four lengths of 50mm furniture webbing are used and these are tacked or stapled to the underside of the matress slats from end to end and about 50 or 70 mm in fom the ends so that the slats can be rolled-up into a bundle if required. Lastly the centre (single) batten can be screwed to the bed head and toe board using 70mm angle plates (two at each end).

At least with this sort of construction you can simply order the timber cut to size and assemble your own bed without any need to make-up beech components, etc. If you can't make it yourself and you can't draw it you may struggle to get it made IMHO

When I refer to softwood I am referring to PSE (planed, square edged - alternatively called "PAR" or planed all round) ungraded softwood that any timber yard or half decent builders merchants could supply.

This isn't the only way to make a bed but it is a composite of a number of commercially available bed designs and is not dissmilar to a basic solid-wood design in many ways

 

[chappers]

It's hard to understand what you want without an idea of the full design, but JaK has given you some good advice as to your corner pieces any timber yard with machining facilities should be able to make that for you, as to whether it will match is another matter. Why not consider making it a feature and staining it a shade or two darker as an obvious feature or maybe even a completely contrasting colour.

 

[willow5]

Thanks for your advice once again JaK and chappers. I have done a rudimentary design below but this is nothing compared to what you have drawn JaK -as an aside, how did you draw yours ?

Where the items in blue are the beech or equivalent pieces, the items in dark brown are 18mm MDF or MFC material that I want to match to a headboard and the light yellow is the softwood I will use to bolster the frame for structural integrity (not sure of the thickness of these as yet though).

As a concept, please can you advise if this would work bearing in mind what you have said above about the slats ? I forgot to mention that I am not looking for a headboard to be attached to this frame, all I am looking for is a bed base that can be wheeled in a out of a fixed wall headboard (hope that makes sense). If I use slats, is there a possibility of buying ready made slats in a metal frame unit which I can simply drop into this bed frame with the right support ? I was hoping I could buy something off the shelf for this purpose. As for the fixings on each quadrant, I was hoping to use something like this:

Would this work in your professional opinion ?

Thanks for all your advice

 

[big-all]

i use 4x1" planed [95x21mm] with a 55-70mm gap between slats slats rounded over
a bit off 2x1planed[44x21mm] down the center fixed top and bottom to tie them all in together underneath with 2 screws per plank
never ever make a bed base till you have the mattress as there is no such thing a mattress for every size

 

[chappers]

I was going to suggest a pre made slat system yes you can buy them off the shelf and they are altogether on a frame and pre sprung so no sagging. You can also buy just the slats pre sprung, otherwise known technically as bent

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I have done a rudimentary design below but this is nothing compared to what you have drawn JaK -as an aside, how did you draw yours ?

SketchUp. It's available as a freebie (from Google). We sometimes use it at work to work through the construction details when there are queries (or more often when the architect's drawings/sketches are completely inadequate. I've also used it to do proof of concept stuff on furniture designs and shop interiors

I'd say that looking at your design the blue corner pieces appear to be of massive cross section (something like 70 x 70mm section):

where the leg section itself will impinge into the matress area (matresses tend to have fairly square corners with a modest radius). In real terms this simply won't work becauze the matress will be able to slide all over the place. A possible solution is to make-up corner pieces with a radiused inside profile as well:

But this becomes a problem, too as you will then be dealing with a much more difficult component (to manufacture) as well as having the additional issue of short grain in the leg structure. A leg with short grain is likely to fail under heavy loading - think about the bed being dragges across the floor or being struck by a vacuum cleaner and you'll understand some of the things which can happen. The short grain issue can be overcome by coopering the corner piece (i.e. glueing several pieces od straight timber together which have been planed with appropriately-angled edge bevels:

These are then radiused using hand planes and a sander to give the appropriate radius:

This still leaves the issue of how to connect the structural softwood pieces and how to tie the legs into the corners. It also requires a fair degree of accuracy on your part and in view of the fact that you are considering putting out the making of the corners are you sure that you have the necessary skills and tool kit to achieve this?

I wonder if a more "limited" design might not be more readily achieved? Something like this:

In this case I've taken a 44 x 44mm square section leg and radiused the outside and put a small chamfer on the inside edge. Simpler and far cheaper to makefrom one piece in the solid (don't underestimate the skill required to o a coopered joint)

Were I using solid beech for the corners then I'd look to make the main panels from beech veneered MDF rather than MF-MDF or MFC. That would allow me to utilise solid beech lipping to obtain a more "integrated" appearance (I also note that you haven't proffered a solution for the edges of your MFC or MF-MDF - both can have a razor sharp edge off the saw and so the issue of edging needs to be addressed)

Whatever you do there is yet another issue to deal with at the design stage - that of getting the item into the bedroom and assembled. Assuming that your property is like most houses these days you'll have to consider making the item elsewhere and then assembling it, dismantling the item and reassembling it in the bedroom again. Your joints need to be strong enough to withstand this, especially as you intend to build a free-standing double-size unit.

In terms of mattress sizes it is always better to go with an ex-stock matress; for one thing bedding will be available off the shelf and for another the matress will cost considerably less. Professional mattress makers (and we have two of the largest in the UK within this area) can always provide a one-off special at extra price, or one of the memory foam firms can do it at a sharper price (there's less work in a foam slab than a pocket-sprung matress)

 

[willow5]

Thanks for all replies once again

you can buy them off the shelf

Do you know where I can buy these off the shelf from ?

SketchUp.

Thanks for the tip, will look into it....

where the leg section itself will impinge into the matress area (matresses tend to have fairly square corners with a modest radius). In real terms this simply won't work becauze the matress will be able to slide all over the place.

I think you are broadly correct except that I would be having another piece of softwood behind the MDF/MFC to bolster the frame (the yellow pieces in my previous post). If this is the case then presumably I would have right angled corners internally ? Would I still have the issue you mention above ?

Also I wanted to slightly move away from the traditional design where a leg goes from each corner to the floor as I think this would be vulnerable to damage as you say JaK. Instead I was wondering whether I could use something like the bracket in the photo where the leg simply screws to the underside of this triangular bracket hence minimising the force on the corner piece and placing it on the straight rails (also results in moving the leg slightly inwards to stop toes getting stubbed )

Were I using solid beech for the corners then I'd look to make the main panels from beech veneered MDF rather than MF-MDF or MFC

Thanks for the tip, do you mean MDF or MFC which is finished in a beech effect? If so, I wanted to match this mattress base to the headboard MDF/MFC melamine finish I am getting so it has an integrated look when looking at both the headboard and the frame together. In the scenario you mention above, would the frame have a different look to the headboard if it is anything other than beech ?

Your joints need to be strong enough to withstand this, especially as you intend to build a free-standing double-size unit.

I agree - does the bolt and dowel technique I posted in my previous post address the joints sufficiently ?

In terms of mattress sizes it is always better to go with an ex-stock matress; for one thing bedding will be available off the shelf and for another the matress will cost considerably less. Professional mattress makers (and we have two of the largest in the UK within this area) can always provide a one-off special at extra price, or one of the memory foam firms can do it at a sharper price (there's less work in a foam slab than a pocket-sprung matress)

Thanks for this advice - by ex-stock, do you mean ex-display ? How would I go about sourcing something like this ? Could I approach the mattress manufacturers directly ? Do you know of any retailers that stock the big brand mattresses as ex-stock ? Also, please could you elaborate on bedding being available off the shelf and your other point about mattress makers providing a one-off special at extra price - not sure I follow....

I am feeling more confident about this project now thanks to everyone's input so thanks once again....do you feel this is doable for a DIYer?

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I think you are broadly correct except that I would be having another piece of softwood behind the MDF/MFC to bolster the frame (the yellow pieces in my previous post). If this is the case then presumably I would have right angled corners internally ? Would I still have the issue you mention above ?

Right angle corners internally would mean that the walls of the bed would need to be extremely thick. That carries a massive weight/bulk penalty.

Also I wanted to slightly move away from the traditional design where a leg goes from each corner to the floor as I think this would be vulnerable to damage

You are now getting into the realms of a "2-layer" frame assembly - which is again heavy and potentially complex because no bracket is going to offer a sufficiently rigid solution IMHO. You really need to consider this as a 3D solution - make a 1/10th cardboard model or the like to see why you can't do things. The brackets shown cannot support te side-stresses a bed can/will place on them. Tale a look at the bracing on a decent quality dining table and you can begin to understand what is required

do you mean MDF or MFC which is finished in a beech effect?

You need to do a lot more research into the material names you are bandying around, here:

MFC - melamine-faced chipboard, a form of chipboard sheeyt with a layer of decorative (printed) paper bonded onto both side and encapsulated within a thin coating od melamine plastic

MF-MDF - melamine-faced MDF. As above but with MDF as the substrate rather than MFC

Note: As sawn (on commercial equipment) BOTH of these materials will have razor sharp edges which can easily cut through skin. The edges are rather fragile and need to be protected. This is generally achieved by either edge-banding with a self-adhesive or heat-activated adhesive tape in a matching decor to the main board (cheap but requires the edges breaking, not very durable when used on stuff like beds), or by applying a PVC or ABS edging tape some 2 to 3mm thick which they needs to be trimmed and radiused (with a router and cutter) or by applying a solid wood lipping (although that won't match the decor TBH)

Veneered MDF is where solid wood veneer is applied over an MDF substrate. The edges still need protection and either an iron-on veneer edging can be used (not particularly durable) or better still a solid wood lipping can be used and trimmed/radiused with a router.

There is no such thing as "beech effect". Something is either solid wood, veneered man-0made sheet material or melamine-faced man made material. And a printed pattern on paper can NEVER match a veneer or solid wood surface. It will always stand out like a sore thumb.

I agree - does the bolt and dowel technique I posted in my previous post address the joints sufficiently ?

Only if there is sufficient strength and thickness of tiumber in the corner components. It will be worthless for fixing the legs in place (no lateral strength) and it will probably be anappropriate for fixing an upper layer to a lower one

Thanks for this advice - by ex-stock, do you mean ex-display ?

Manufactured. Off the shelf. Not custom-made. Non-standard sizes can be manufactured by a limited number of companies, but I'd suggesting anything non-standard as the costs will simply spiral.

As to sizes, have you done any research into what standard matress sizes are? Do that and then look on bedding web sites to discover for yourself what I mean

....do you feel this is doable for a DIYer?

Yes, but you have failed to do even the most basic research into bed sizes, etc which you urgently need to address. You don't really understand the materials you are referring to at all well - another big hole in your knowledge. You are also approaching this from the point of view of designing stuff which you have no idea how to make and then expecting to find some "pro" out there to do the hard bits for you. That will cost you dear. I'd tend to start from the point of view of what I can do myself with the tools that I have. Designing something you can't build yourself will probably result in complete frustration and lack of any end result. So maybe you need to take stock of your capabilities as well as doing some more fundamental design research

 

[willow5]

Sorry if I gave you the impression that I don't know about materials - actually I have recently put together a cutting list for some cupboards out of MFC (egger) and am aware of the edge banding (ABS) and other techniques used to finish the razor sharp edges.

I guess I was hoping to put together a cutting list for this project and send it over to a fabricator.

In terms of bed sizes, I wanted to go for a standard queen sized bed. My understanding is that the length is the same for most bed sizes but the width varies between 1.5m up to 2.1m.

Are you therefore saying my approach is entirely wrong here or do I have a good basis for continuing?

Do you know of any retailers selling ex-stock mattresses by the way?

 

[chappers]

I would agree that you need to do some more research 10 seconds on google found these guys. as for the legs. if they are as big as 70 mm I would get them made up and then I would do a combination of JaK's first and last pictures cutting away the inner corner down to the mattress slat supports, with an open stepped housing to take the sides. there by leaving the meat in the leg but reducing the profile at the top.
Do as Big Al suggested earlier and get the mattress first

 

[willow5]

Thanks @chappers - your link didn't come through....also thanks for the tip on the legs. My initial plan was going to be to add the legs onto the corner bracket I posted previously but JaK has correctly pointed out that it would not work.

As an aside, does anyone know what the loading calculations are for this frame ? By that I mean if I take the combined weight of two adults and a mattress (weight to be determined) then for these given weights, what would the frame thickness and structural rigidity need to be? Don't know if that makes sense at all....?

 

[chappers]

https://www.bedslats.co.uk/?gclid=C...6_o4Gur76o6WUEVUmWgGQShKeqS7bL6N1oaAgsi8P8HAQ