Bedroom to Bathroom

[simongii]

Hi all,
Firstly, I'd like to thank you all for the lots of tips/help I've gleaned from this site in the past. Though I've only joined just now, and this is my first post I've used this site as a primary source of research before embarking on many previous DIY jobs.

We've just bought a house, built ~50s. The bathroom is very small and we've decided to move the bathroom into one of the bedrooms - and convert the existing bathroom into a small box-bedroom.

I have a thousand questions to ask but for now I have a few to get you started! Apologies if they're dumb or have already been answered elsewhere. I've been researching online for a while now and to be honest I have found conflicting answers on some sites.

I'm an enthusiastic DIYer but a DIYer all the same. I would like to know firstly how much I can do myself and how much I will need to get a professional to certify or get building regs involved in. Underfloor heating looks to require an electrician. Not sure if the plumbing aspect is as stringent.

1) The existing soil stack is cast iron and with it being in a position to service the current bathroom rather than the bedroom we'd like to convert I was considering adding another, plastic, soil pipe to a better location - then removing the old CI later. I think the main sewage drain runs parallel with the back of the house so I think it's possible albeit a big effort. I believe I can get sufficient fall to tee into the existing soil stack but the span would make it look a little unsightly as well as any complications in connecting to a CI pipe. Does this sound sensible, and if so will I need Building Regs. involved to do this? The building is not listed.

2) For the new bathroom I intend to use plastic speedfit pipe in most places and copper only where needed for tails to taps/shower and towel rail (will be going from plastic on existing CH system). I know there is some debate on the use of speedfit over copper/solder but I have weighed things up and decided plastic is better for my circumstances. My question here is more on the bonding of the pipe work. Will it be required and if so to what extent? - I have read about bridging over speedfit till you get to copper but that could be a couple of metres for each tail for what I'm planning.

3) Final question: We're hoping to raise half of the floor in the new bathroom and use it as a wet area with a tub on one side and a walk-in tiled shower on the other. I have been pricing up various wet room trays and have one question which I can't find an answer to. Is the wet room tray only necessary to create a gradient? If so is there anything stopping one constructing a tray out of plywood with necessary gradients and drainage? My uncle is a retired patternmaker and I'm not sure if there is anything he couldn't make out of timber! From what I've read the membrane or tanking paint acts as the water barrier so I'm not sure if the material of the sub-floor is important.

Thanks for any responses and sorry I have padded it out! I can see me using this site a lot for my questions over the coming months so any tips of how to ask the right question/where to post will also be gratefully received.

Simon

 

[Richard C]

The bathroom is very small and we've decided to move the bathroom into one of the bedrooms - and convert the existing bathroom into a small box-bedroom.

Constructing a new bathroom is notifyable building work, must comply with several Building Regulations including sound proofing of any stud walls adjacent to another habitable room (bedroom). It will be subject to inspection & possible LABC witness test of the new foul drain & inspection hatches.

I would like to know firstly how much I can do myself and how much I will need to get a professional to certify or get building regs involved in.

You can actually do everything yourself including the electrics as long as your Building Notice submission includes the work before you start. You LABC will inspect & sign off the work as compliant with B Regs but with electrics, an LABC appointed electrician will test & certify as compliant. It’s important you understand this cannot be done after the event so electrical DIY work must be included on your original Building Notice submission. Weather you’re competent & actually capable of doing all the work is another matter.

Underfloor heating looks to require an electrician.

You can DIY install to the same conditions as above but if your consumer unit is very old, you may need to change that as well before the circuit can be connected, tested & certified by a registered Electrician.

Under floor heating as a secondary/supplementary heat source is a bit of a gimmick IMO. The warm up/response time will be at least 30 mins so you’ll be in & out before it starts to have any effect. You can leave it permanently on & controlled by the thermostat (expensive) or run it on a timer but that restricts you to the same times every day. Most 1st floor bathrooms will not have cold floors even when tiled; heat rises from the room below; supplementary UFH is not worth the hassle IMO.

Not sure if the plumbing aspect is as stringent.

For general plumbing/drainage work you don’t need any special qualifications or registration but the work must comply with B Regs. but some work is notifyable unless you’re a member of one of the registered self certifying bodies.

1) The existing soil stack is cast iron and with it being in a position to service the current bathroom rather than the bedroom we'd like to convert I was considering adding another, plastic, soil pipe to a better location - then removing the old CI later. I think the main sewage drain runs parallel with the back of the house so I think it's possible albeit a big effort. I believe I can get sufficient fall to tee into the existing soil stack but the span would make it look a little unsightly as well as any complications in connecting to a CI pipe. Does this sound sensible, and if so will I need Building Regs. involved to do this?

Installing anew soil stack & inspection covers is notifyable work (on your building notice), subject to LABC inspection & possible witness test.

The building is not listed.

Irrelevant.

2) For the new bathroom I intend to use plastic speedfit pipe in most places and copper only where needed for tails to taps/shower and towel rail (will be going from plastic on existing CH system). I know there is some debate on the use of speedfit over copper/solder but I have weighed things up and decided plastic is better for my circumstances.

I only ever used soldered copper & never use Speedfit or plastic for that matter; I’m a sceptical, plumbing luddite & don’t like the idea of relying on a rubber O ring for the life of the plumbing, whatever that may be, especially in my own house! Copper is not that difficult to master & is not much more expensive in terms of materials cost.

My question here is more on the bonding of the pipe work. Will it be required and if so to what extent? - I have read about bridging over speedfit till you get to copper but that could be a couple of metres for each tail for what I'm planning.

The 17th edition regulations changed things I believe & I’m not up to speed with current requirements. I would advise you post specific questions in the Electrical Forum or go with the advice of a registered spark if that’s the route you’re going to take.

3) Is the wet room tray only necessary to create a gradient? If so is there anything stopping one constructing a tray out of plywood with necessary gradients and drainage? My uncle is a retired patternmaker and I'm not sure if there is anything he couldn't make out of timber! From what I've read the membrane or tanking paint acts as the water barrier so I'm not sure if the material of the sub-floor is important.

The advantage of using wet room formers is they are well made from truly waterproof materials. You can form your own wet room using WBP ply but it must be of sufficient thickness & be rigidly supported with no perceivable movement or the tiles will fail. Timber absorbs water & waterproof cement based adhesive & grout (except expensive epoxy products) is still permeable so the whole floor area & at least part way up the walls must be fully tanked as opposed to just the joins using waterproof wet room formers.

Don’t start cutting or notching joists, that’s also controlled by B Regs.

 

[simongii]

Thanks Richard, that's given me a few things to think about.
I will get onto Bromsgrove Council to discuss notification. This is the first part of a project to totally revamp the whole house, bathroom, kitchen, loft conversion, garage conversion etc. so I suppose I'll have to make some friends at the council anyway.

Interesting about the electrical work - I didn't realise you can still get your own work tested. It looks as though the council charge an additional fee for inspecting the electrical work. I can weigh up whether or not that's economically better than having a professional registered with CPS come and connect, test and certify it.

They offer pre-application/notification visits so I may see if they'll come and visit to give any adivce or spot anything else that may throw up an issue.

I have a follow up question re. the wet room. Does tanking/waterproof matting (eg. the wickes tanking fleece with all necessary taping) provide a waterproof barrier? I've seen a lot of videos/how tos where they use this matting over the former itself and then over the rest of the wet area. So if this matting does provide a suitable water barrier is the material underneath important? My idea is to use WBP ply with gradients leading to a normal wet room suitable drain. All of this ply could then be covered in matting, UFH (maybe) and tiled over. Unless I am massively underestimating the difficulty in creating natural gradients in the floor I can't see why people shell out 3/4 hundred on a former. Most of my DIY work has gradients in!! As I said in my original query I'm raising the floor in that part of the bathroom with a timber frame. I can't see it being too difficult to ensure that the fram has an intentional slope towards the drain.

Thanks again for your time and experience.

 

[Richard C]

Interesting about the electrical work - I didn't realise you can still get your own work tested. It looks as though the council charge an additional fee for inspecting the electrical work. I can weigh up whether or not that's economically better than having a professional registered with CPS come and connect, test and certify it.

Just to repeat; you can only go the DIY route if you notify BEFORE you start the work, they will not want to know if you try & do it retrospectively. In fact it’s illegal for a spark to sign off someone else’s work, the best they are likely to offer is a PIR which will certify the circuits as safe but not that the work is in accordance with Building Regulations; most LABC will not accept this & won't sign off your BN. You may find it’s not worth the hassle & easier to get a registered spark to do it who can self certify, I do bathroom refurbishments & find this is by far the easiest option even when notifying the rest of the work.

Does tanking/waterproof matting (eg. the wickes tanking fleece with all necessary taping) provide a waterproof barrier? I've seen a lot of videos/how tos where they use this matting over the former itself and then over the rest of the wet area. So if this matting does provide a suitable water barrier is the material underneath important?

I’m more familiar with liquid tanking membrane (WP1) or Shluter physical membrane, not familiar with the Wickes tanking fleece; unsure exactly what it is or designed for, can you provide a link; is it specifically designed for use in wet rooms?

My idea is to use WBP ply with gradients leading to a normal wet room suitable drain. All of this ply could then be covered in matting, UFH (maybe) and tiled over. Unless I am massively underestimating the difficulty in creating natural gradients in the floor I can't see why people shell out 3/4 hundred on a former. Most of my DIY work has gradients in!! As I said in my original query I'm raising the floor in that part of the bathroom with a timber frame. I can't see it being too difficult to ensure that the fram has an intentional slope towards the drain.

As I said, if you can afford the time involved there is nothing wrong with forming you own wet room floor from WBP as long as it’s rigid with no discernable flex or movement & is well tanked.

 

[simongii]

Thanks again Richard for the repsonse.

I understand re. the electrics. I think you're right it'll be easier to get a pro in and self certify. But if I were to do the DIY route it's notification before work - got it.

The Wickes fleece is at:
http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/207303
I think it's comparable to the Homelux wet room matting you can get from Topps:
http://www.toppstiles.co.uk/section20/page1/wet-rooms.
I think I'd be more comfortable with the matting than the liquid tanking but as far as I can tell both achieve the same thing. The link doesn't provide much int he way of specs. but I watched the Wickes video at
http://www.wickes.co.uk/home-projects/how-to-install-a-wet-room/pcat/wetroom/
here the guy puts the membrane over the tray and rest of the area (not sure why they don't do the walls as they do with the Topps one).

I'll speak to the uncle (ex-pattern maker) about forming the floor ourselves, just loathed to pay so much for something that we might be able to custom build.

Thanks again for the help.

 

[Armo74]

Im fairly certain that current regs state that all new builds require thermastatic mixing valves on baths and basins to prevent scalding, a bedroom to bathroom conversion is classed as a new build.

 

[Richard C]

Im fairly certain that current regs state that all new builds require thermastatic mixing valves on baths and basins to prevent scalding, a bedroom to bathroom conversion is classed as a new build.

Can you indicate where exactly Building Regs state that I’m genuinly not having a go, I’m just interested as, believe me, the latest bunch of B Regs take some understanding & as to where they actually apply .

The latest incarnation of Part G restricts water temperature in 100 degrees for a storage cylinder & 48 degrees for a bath: interestingly it doesn’t seem to say anything about hand wash basins, sinks or bidets which, IMO, would cause far more pain & damage, even if only locally; draw your own image from that . The exemptions also state “The regulation only applies where a dwelling is”;

a) Erected (new build)

b) Formed when the building is subject to a material change of use

As far as I’m aware, an extension would be classed as new build but converting a bedroom in an existing property would not. Similarly it is not classed as a material change of use.

It is good/common practice with retrofits to fit a TCV on the main HW feed (as I do) which restricts the HW circuit temperature to a maximum of 60 degrees.

 

[fraserbathrooms]

Hi wetroom formers are expensive and assume your foor is level, and your joists dont sit under their drain hole.

18 MM ply can be supported and cut to any shape then covered with tanking such as wpi or homelux sheeting or both it's the way to go. See how it is done solid ply base plus tanking foolproof!

 

[Richard C]

Hi wetroom formers are expensive and assume your foor is level, and your joists dont sit under their drain hole. 18 MM ply can be supported and cut to any shape then covered with tanking such as wpi or homelux sheeting or both it's the way to go. See how it is done solid ply base plus tanking foolproof!

See how it is done on my wet room construction gallery

www.fraserbathrooms.co.uk/bathroom-edinburgh-gallery.html[/QUOTE]
Firk off vanker