Bifolds floor level offset

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Among a number of issues causing ultimate frustration during our extension project, this one remains particularly tricky...

The fitting of our bifolds took place on agreed measurements before screed and tiles were put down. The end result is the weather track sticking out over the floor tiles by at least 20mm when the bifolds are fully open. This is also way off compare to the floor/tracks I was shown in their showroom.

The story in brief, building contractor asked to order the bifolds but the screed was not laid down at the time. When the supply and fitting company surveyor turned up he was adamant I will need to sign off on the finished floor levels for them to process the order. The builder argued it was their job to take reference from the house floor levels as he would match to that. Waiting for the screed would have generated serious setbacks to the project. I don't know what would have been the standard.

Since this was an important investment I requested they liaise together to ensure the height is correct. The builder used a cross level laser to provide a level on the shell blocks while the surveyor carried out measurements of the opening, lintel etc. I received an email from the bifolds company with 1 millimetre precision heights to sign off, involving track height from the lintel of the opening, the screed and the floor thickness. I double checked with the builder and once everyone was happy we signed off. After all I had no means of checking this any further myself.

The doors were fitted a couple of weeks later, a month later the screed and tiles were down. Once the tiles were in the offset was more than evident. The tiler even said he could not compensate more for the lip and his floor is perfectly level with the existing house floor.

I put a significant amount of time into revisiting the agreed heights and luckily have a number of photos from the fitting. Checking both on the interior and exterior of the track at this point I am 100% confident the entire bifold system was fitted higher than agreed by an offset of 15~20mm. I have no access to the details passed on to the fitter but it appears too many spacers were used on the underside of the track, lifting the whole thing too high. The lintel position is always the key reference to all the heights. The tiled floor height from the lintel underside matches height agreed to within 4-5mm, so the issue falls entirely on the bifold fitting.

The bifolds company argued they fitted everything as agreed --not, I asked them to come and survey about a month ago but still chasing up. Unfortunately the work was paid before I had the chance to realise the problem. I understand this is logistically impossible to fix now as the cost and damage involved is over the top.

But is such margin of error acceptable for this type of product?!

/end of rant
 
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Effectively you wanted an invisible threshold if I understood that correctly but now have a 20mm upstand. Clearly the doors have been packed up to the lintel, is that wrong well not really, personally I like to sit them on something solid with minimal packing to get the track level and true, it seems if they'd of done this the doors would of been short of the lintel, I don't know what that gap would of been but within reason it could of been cloaked or a frame extender fitted.

Having said all that you now have a set of doors higher up than you planned but you roughly knew how thick the tiles where, you knew roughly how thick the adhesive bed would be so why not increase the screed thickness slightly so the tiles finished closer to what you planned.

Clearly now the only option is to refit the doors lower down and sort the top out how the fitter sees acceptable
 
If the door is fixed to the lintel as it should be and the doors are too high then they have been produced too short [or they did not install a packing rail to the top, which gives the same result].Have you checked the dimensions against the order.?
 
If a customer asks for a flush threshold from the outset and the builder and door supplier know this, I can’t really see how either the builder or door supplier are not to blame. Achieving a flush threshold is not brain surgery it just requires some coordination which, somewhere along the line has fallen down. The customer should not be responsible for signing off any measurements that’s what the builder is for, assuming the contract has been set up correctly.
 
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I did not receive any drawings from the supplying company, only agreed heights and opening with reference to the lintel, number of panels, configuration and handles.

To clarify matters a bit I have added some photos and a quick drawing botched together with a track I found on the web. The track funnily enough is the actual track. The drawing I have put together next to it is only for reference, nothing to scale.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1nu7psfew1xalk0/AAAVopbUU9d0LbgHJb8I54W3a?dl=0

underside of lintel to top of screed = 2093mm
builders to cut down from top of final finish floor 90mm on outside course, weather track and cill.
Floor thickness = 22mm.
Overall height from underside of lintel to underneath of our cill =2161mm.

The last figure is the easiest to check, my measurements at four points outside show the height from underside of track to the underside of the lintel is shorter than agreed. Hence the system was placed higher up. Also during the tiling I found a self-leveling cross laser and placed it on the old house floor, facing the bifolds. The ruler may not be clear enough in the photo but the beam is on both cases around the 8cm mark. I may be wrong but that to me shows floors are not far off.

I have no knowledge of the fitting process for aluminium bifolding systems but had some reasonable expectations. For example the schematic of the track is self explanatory and if you see the photo of the showroom tracks (middle with cill is mine) it clearly shows where the finished floor line should be. The worse case scenario would be for the track to be flush with the floor. After all what would be the point of the entire height agreement if the track was not meant to go level with the floors?

The tiny angled weather lip is around 5-6mm high from the line and that would have been acceptable. This was supposed to be allowed in their calculations. To my understanding the system is made slightly shorter to be fitted with spacers top/bottom of the opening for levelling. It seems bolted on all sides and gaps were filled with foam.

It is of additional disappointment that the builder did not bother to check the fitted system was correctly installed to the agreed heights before going forward with the screed. He washed his hands off after the tiling and did not even bother to come and check the measurements with me. In that respect, it is with a lot of regret not checking the doors myself at the time of fitting.
 
Supplier does not seem keen on checking the doors or revisit the survey.

Is there any option to use an independent survey service that can produce a report on measurements?
 
Tricky situation. I always get the builder to physically mark finished floor level before I take sizes.
There is no real way the windows guys can know the screed thickness + finished floor without a mark or guessing.

Is that screed fully finished floor? I'm guessing there is something to go ontop of that yet?
 
Tricky situation. I always get the builder to physically mark finished floor level before I take sizes.
There is no real way the windows guys can know the screed thickness + finished floor without a mark or guessing.

Is that screed fully finished floor? I'm guessing there is something to go ontop of that yet?

I think you have misread a big chunk on my first post about this part. The job is complete with doors fitted a couple of months ago, however this does not discharge the supplier from our arrangement. The levels of the screed and floor thickness were requested and provided by the builder. The finished floor was marked for their surveyor while taking measurements. It was their condition to sign off measurements in writing.

(The photos are before/after screed and tiling and the bifolds as soon as they were fitted)

They then fitted the door track higher than agreed/showroom level by 14+mm. Question is, I cannot see why this should be acceptable on a £5k system with a conditional contract on floor levels ?

Do I need an independent survey report...?
 
So after a couple of odd months I managed to obtain some plans,
added in the photos below/I have redacted private information.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/x7aqkwfdyymcw6v/AAB9YdU8KZSFjep7p9N4VV2Fa?dl=0

The height of the entire system is noted as 2145mm, I Know the weather track is 90mm and that leaves I suppose 75mm for the top profile.
They said they allowed tolerances of 12mm at the top for insulation and 5mm at bottom for packing and damp course. As far as all my measurements go the track is positioned 12-15mm higher than agreed height. And I have even drilled the plasterboard to find the lintel.

After taking this to GGF the company finally replied they are willing to come out and check IF possible to lower the doors they will do as goodwill. Supporting that all damage to the building will be covered on my end!

They are still claiming it is the builder's fault, because the screed was not down and height was provided.
I am not sure why they still think this is a valid ground for fitting higher after requesting me to sign the heights, perhaps they live in a different universe...

I am looking for a surveyor or expert witness in case I have to produce an independent report. Any suggestions where to look?
 
As somebody who regularly measures doors and windows, I can say it can be a grey area.

Often I am contracted to the houseowner as my customer, but when it comes to survey, its often the builder that I discuss the details with. Builders are often too casual with the scope of responsibilty and when there is any possibity of confusion I email the client and get approval.

It does seem in this case that the builder and surveyor worked out the information correctly and the door set was made to the correct height -assuming you can move it down without and issues.

Are you saying the door frame is packed up higher than it should be or is the brickwork too high?

It sounds to me like it is just a case of lowering the frame and making good the decoration. If it was I would go with their offer if the making good isnt going to be a major issue. If its going to damage the reveal plaster can they not provide some small trims to cover afterwards -to be honest the plaster will probably shrink back and crack anyway at the junction. It will need a trom across the head in and out anyway.
 
As somebody who regularly measures doors and windows, I can say it can be a grey area.

Often I am contracted to the houseowner as my customer, but when it comes to survey, its often the builder that I discuss the details with. Builders are often too casual with the scope of responsibilty and when there is any possibity of confusion I email the client and get approval.

It does seem in this case that the builder and surveyor worked out the information correctly and the door set was made to the correct height -assuming you can move it down without and issues.

Are you saying the door frame is packed up higher than it should be or is the brickwork too high?

It sounds to me like it is just a case of lowering the frame and making good the decoration. If it was I would go with their offer if the making good isnt going to be a major issue. If its going to damage the reveal plaster can they not provide some small trims to cover afterwards -to be honest the plaster will probably shrink back and crack anyway at the junction. It will need a trom across the head in and out anyway.

It's good to have the view of someone who is actually fitting doors.

This is what I also thought, that it was packed up too high and it's the most plausible case. I don't know how far you are allowed to pack or move the entire frame up and down, I am no expert. Shame, the fitter was a nice chap and I cannot be certain what instructions he was provided. Since the matter was height sensitive the surveyor should have inspected their work after the fitting. The problem started from the minute they refused to come out and check their own work.

If you look at the photos there are a lot of packers under the weather track, I guess they put one too many. They said in the mail they allow 12mm tolerance with the lintel but it seems to be less in the photos.

And it is true the damage will be tricky. The frame profiles are encased in render on the outside and plasterboard on the interior. The floor has 80x80 tiles and any damage would require those to be replaced. So there are a lot of things that can go wrong and in my experience with trades it will be costly to restore things to their present quality, unless they are very meticulous with the work. Who would provide guarantees that the work will be as planned after all this.

How can I obtain an independent survey?
 
It's good to have the view of someone who is actually fitting doors.

This is what I also thought, that it was packed up too high and it's the most plausible case. I don't know how far you are allowed to pack or move the entire frame up and down, I am no expert. Shame, the fitter was a nice chap and I cannot be certain what instructions he was provided. Since the matter was height sensitive the surveyor should have inspected their work after the fitting. The problem started from the minute they refused to come out and check their own work.

If you look at the photos there are a lot of packers under the weather track, I guess they put one too many. They said in the mail they allow 12mm tolerance with the lintel but it seems to be less in the photos.

And it is true the damage will be tricky. The frame profiles are encased in render on the outside and plasterboard on the interior. The floor has 80x80 tiles and any damage would require those to be replaced. So there are a lot of things that can go wrong and in my experience with trades it will be costly to restore things to their present quality, unless they are very meticulous with the work. Who would provide guarantees that the work will be as planned after all this.

How can I obtain an independent survey?

My guess is that the installers weren't given instructions on fitting position by the bifold supplier.

I have to say though, if a level threshold is expected I would have expected whoever is acting as project manager to have provided the height written on the wall, or a measurement down from a datum -builders often laser around a datum at 1 metre above floor finish. If I was involved in the project I would be worrying about and wouldve checked with the installer on the day.

The mistake is a lack of communication, from the supplier but also from the project manager on site -he should have provided an absolute clear datum to work from and checked whilst it was going in. Unfortunately nobody checked until the tiles went down......

If the external wall has now been rendered, then I guess its also been rendered below the external cill?

An independent survey will probably cost you £300 ....is it worth it?
 
See post #2, from a fitting POV it looks like they played it safe as they didn't want the threshold to finish below finished floor level, I asked the question and it still stands and thats why wasn't the screed thickness altered to allow the tiles to come up to threshold height or was somebody just being bloody minded at the time. You could point the finger at the fitters but they played it safe and thought the final adjustment could be made in screed or tile adhesive thickness
 
I think you have misread a big chunk on my first post about this part. The job is complete with doors fitted a couple of months ago, however this does not discharge the supplier from our arrangement. The levels of the screed and floor thickness were requested and provided by the builder. The finished floor was marked for their surveyor while taking measurements. It was their condition to sign off measurements in writing.

(The photos are before/after screed and tiling and the bifolds as soon as they were fitted)

They then fitted the door track higher than agreed/showroom level by 14+mm. Question is, I cannot see why this should be acceptable on a £5k system with a conditional contract on floor levels ?

Do I need an independent survey report...?
5k seems a lot , mine were around 2k but I fitted myself and only 3m wide.
 
My guess is that the installers weren't given instructions on fitting position by the bifold supplier.

Given the manner in which they write emails I would imagine so.

I have to say though, if a level threshold is expected I would have expected whoever is acting as project manager to have provided the height written on the wall, or a measurement down from a datum -builders often laser around a datum at 1 metre above floor finish. If I was involved in the project I would be worrying about and wouldve checked with the installer on the day.

The mistake is a lack of communication, from the supplier but also from the project manager on site -he should have provided an absolute clear datum to work from and checked whilst it was going in. Unfortunately nobody checked until the tiles went down......

What I learnt is that if you don't step in communications are always poor with these projects. But on this occasion I engaged with all parties straight away because it was a measurement sensitive matter. I was assured from builder and surveyor they had a clear communication and also made them contact each other to double check. The builder provided a mark for the finished floors on the blocks and they were both present on the survey day. I asked parties to communicate before the order and was assured everything was clear. I have a call from the surveyor confirming they would make the weather track flush. There was really nothing more I could have done but the builder should have checked too after the installation. It is very difficult to appoint liability to the builder after providing the request floor level.

In hindsight I wish we had requested the surveyor to come out one more time to confirm the track was fitted at the agreed level, unfortunately I trusted this was all good...

If the external wall has now been rendered, then I guess its also been rendered below the external cill?

An independent survey will probably cost you £300 ....is it worth it?

Yes, this what I meant by saying the damage can be extensive. If they crack part of the facing render it could be repaired but it will never look the same. Re-rendering the entire facing wall will be costly and all this is very risky for me to accept and foot the bill while they accept no responsibility.
 

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