Blocked drains

[Alison556]

This is going to be difficult to explain I think, but I'll have a go.

There are four of us in a little block of houses (two flats at the top and two flats at the bottom) and we share the same drain. The kitchen and bathroom waste from two houses(ground and first floor right - that's me) go into one pipe and into the soil stack and the toilets from the two houses go into one drainpipe and into the same soil stack. A little bit further along the pipe, the other two houses have the same setup and into the same drain as us (I hope this makes sense).

We've had mega problems recently with the drains constantly blocking. We've had the drainer from the Council out three times since the end of November to unblock it and then today, we had to have a private company out again to unblock it.

I had a surveyor under the floor recently and he said that the foundations were flooded with really rank water and it was soaking through the foundation from the main drain which is buried in my neighbour's path.

That was when we first got the Council drainer to come out - the surveyor reckoned the drain was cracked or broken. The drainer said that the pipe wasn't broken (using his x-ray vision) and that it was blocked and that was why the water was seeping through the path and under the houses. He proceeded to unblock it.

Exactly a week later, we had him out again cos the drains were all choked up again.

And I guess I'd better explain how I know.........when I run the taps in the bathroom and turn them off, I can hear the water gurgling in the shower waste - it doesn't come up the shower fortunately because the plumber couldn't be bothered digging a deep enough trench to sink the new waste for our shower and bathroom sink, so it sits right at the top of the soil stack and is only under half an inch of earth - shoddy by him, but handy for us because we don't get the water coming up it when the drain blocks.

Anyway, back to the second visit by the drainer. This time, he brought a plumber with him. The plumber proceeded to tell me that when the roofers were re-roofing the houses (almost two years ago and this would kind of tie in with the time line), they cut off the tops of all the downpipes and replaced them with plastic . While they were doing this, they dropped bits of the cut off pipes down the drains and blocked them. The plumber says they had to unblock all the drains.

By my reckoning, it's possible that they've not got out all the broken bits and this might be causing the drain to block all the time.

Does this sound like a possibility?

The latest event was Christmas Eve when the neighbour next door to me came running through to tell me that all the waste water was coming up her bath. The Drain Doctor that came out today said that it was the pipe that came from her and her upstairs neighbours kitchen/bathroom waste that was blocked. He used this spiraly thing to clear it and there was no gunge on it or anything that could be causing a blockage.

So that brings me back to perhaps there's broken bits of pipe down there?

I honestly can't understand how a four inch vertical pipe can completely block when it's only the contents of the kitchen/bathroom sinks thats going down it.

I ask so that I'm fore-armed for falling out with the Council when they re-open after the holidays.

At the moment, the Council are footing the bill for clearing the drains, but they won't do that forever and I'm sure I'm not paying out £200 a time to get them cleared.

I hope that all makes sense and any advice would be most appreciated.

Thanks,

Alison

 

[noseall]

are there any inspection chambers around the property?

 

[Alison556]

If we're thinking on the same lines here, then there are three. There's a little 6" x 6" cast iron cover on the drain outside my front door - this is the start of the pipe at our house. I've looked down there and nearly been sick on a couple of occassions that it's been blocked!!

There is also another little cover like this at the halfway mark of the block and at the end of the block of houses (my next door neighbours side), there is a manhole cover. For some reason I thought there would be this big pipe in there, but I peered down it yesterday and it's just a big hole in the ground with this little channel running along the bottom of it.

Sorry, what a lot of waffle to answer simply, yes, 3.

 

[Mrs Spanner]

Whereabouts are they clearing the blockage from, is it from one of the manholes? Are they clearing it from the same sort of place every time? How long have you been there and has the problem only recently started? It's probably not the vertical pipe blocking, but somewhere further down the run and the water is simply backing up because it can't get past the blockage.

I'd suggest getting a CCTV done of the pipes, this will at least tell you if there is something stuck in the pipe which is slowly being pushed further downstream, or whether there is a crack/break or drop in the pipe etc. Sometimes an experienced drainage engineer can 'feel' if there is something sinister going on from his tools but the only way to see for certain is to stick a camera down it and have a proper look. Otherwise you will keep going round in circles. And technically if it's not a water board owned sewer, it's jointly owned by everyone who drains through that part so the costs should be split. Depending on where you are, sometimes the Council will be helpful and CCTV it for you or can sort something out so everyone gets recharged proportionally. Or you could approach your home insurance and see if they will do it - especially if there is a suggestion that the damp might be damaging the foundations they might be ok with paying for a CCTV survey - if you don't ask you don't get.

 

[noseall]

is it possible to then deduce where the actual blockage is occurring, or do you already know?

is there a predominance of females living in the block of flats?

 

[Alison556]

Whereabouts are they clearing the blockage from, is it from one of the manholes? Are they clearing it from the same sort of place every time? How long have you been there and has the problem only recently started? It's probably not the vertical pipe blocking, but somewhere further down the run and the water is simply backing up because it can't get past the blockage.

The drainer comes and clears it from the little cover outside my door, then the one halfway down the block and then looks down the big manhole. He uses a pole with a disc thing on the end and plunges at it. The last time he was here, he used a jet wash thing to spray up from the big manhole.

I'd suggest getting a CCTV done of the pipes, this will at least tell you if there is something stuck in the pipe which is slowly being pushed further downstream, or whether there is a crack/break or drop in the pipe etc. Sometimes an experienced drainage engineer can 'feel' if there is something sinister going on from his tools but the only way to see for certain is to stick a camera down it and have a proper look. Otherwise you will keep going round in circles. And technically if it's not a water board owned sewer, it's jointly owned by everyone who drains through that part so the costs should be split. Depending on where you are, sometimes the Council will be helpful and CCTV it for you or can sort something out so everyone gets recharged proportionally. Or you could approach your home insurance and see if they will do it - especially if there is a suggestion that the damp might be damaging the foundations they might be ok with paying for a CCTV survey - if you don't ask you don't get.

At the moment, there are three owner occupiers and I'm still a council tenant (which is why they will still deal with it) but I'm in the process of buying the house and I want this sorted before the sale completes.

I asked the council drainer about a camera down the pipe and all he said was that it cost £1200 and the drain was full of "women's things". Now I know for a fact that "women's things" aren't coming from my house and I didn't feel it appropriate to be going round my neighbours asking them, so I contacted the council housing officer and she sent a letter out to all of us saying not to put inappropriate items down the toilet.

When the private company came out yesterday, the guy cut a hole in the vertical pipe outside my neighbours house and put this spiral thing down it to clear it.

Onto "noseall's" questions..............

I'm honestly not sure where the blockage is. The surveyor pointed to where he believed the pipe to be fractured and certainly when the plumber went under the floor, he said that there was water coming through in that area - but that was when they told me that it was blocked - so it appears to be blocking after all the houses drains are going into the main drain.

Yes, it's all women in the block and apart from me, they're all over 60. When they got the letter from the council about putting disposable nappies, incontinence pads and sanitary towels down the toilet, they've all denied this - they're all too old (or too young) to be using anything like that.

Me and my nextdoor neighbour, who are both on the ground floor are saying that maybe we're being horrible in our thinking, but our two upstairs neighbours get their grandchildren coming frequently and they are toddlers and babies - but both deny putting any baby things down the toilets.

Edited: I forgot to put.........this has been going on for some time. Four years ago, the same surveyor told me that the foundations were flooded. After that, there was an asbestos removal firm came round (they said it was flooded as well - that was two years ago) and they tanked the founds. In the past two years, the water has obviously been discharging into the foundations and it's only since October when the surveyor was out again that I've been harrassing the council about it because they didn't attend to it when it was first reported four years ago.

 

[Agile]

If the drain clearer used a "screw" on his rods he could retrieve the "evidence" and you could present it to the other residents.

Whatever people say, some do put things down the drain which they should not! Hitting them with a drain clearance bill is the best way to get them to desist. ( By the way people can be incontentinent at any age, not just very young or very old! )

There is clearly a bigh problem. It may just be whats put down or it may be broken joints. But you really need evidence from the drain cleaner first and then perhaps a CTV survey. Thats usually about £300 if you shop around or less.

Tony

 

[Alison556]

Thanks, I knew that they'd all deny blocking the drains - whether they were or not. I know for a fact that it's not coming from my house because I am very careful about what goes down the toilet.

The first time the guy came out, he did pull out "women's thing" as he so eloquently put it but that was ages ago and I didn't think of presenting it to my upstairs neighbour (cos it was definitely her - it was on our bit of the drain) because I didn't realise at that time it was going to be a major problem.

The guy that was out on Boxing Day said that baby wipes and toilet wipes are the biggest causes of blockages. Is that correct? I don't use them, but chances are my upstairs neighbour uses baby wipes on her grandkids.

It's a pain in the backside because me and the other downstairs neighbour aren't wanting to be constantly forking out to get the drains cleaned - the upstairs ones are very much a case of "it's not affecting them so why should they be held responsible".

And I'm glad the camera isn't as expensive as the drainer said!

And I know incontinence can strike at any age - my quote was from all the neighbours!!!!

 

[Agile]

The horizontal part of the drains is shared by upstairs and downstairs and they are equally responsible for the cost of clearing. The terms may be set out in the lease from the Freeholder.

If the Council is the freeholder then they may prefer to clear the drains and just charge the leaseholders.

If the drains were in perfect condition then most things put down would not block them. If there are partial obstructions then anything more solid will be liable to get stuck at that point.

Unfortunately you are in a bad situation with neighbours who are not being careful with what they pout down the drain.

I think it would have been far better if you had confronted the upstairs neighbour when her blockage was found. She might have been more careful afterwards.

Tony

 

[Mrs Spanner]

Roughly how old are the properties?

As one of the others said - there's absolutely no way a CCTV survey should be £1200! To be honest I don't really buy the story of 'things' being put down the toilet that cause the blockage, if you're going to try and put something too big down the loo, you stand as much chance of blocking your loo than you do the communal pipes. I think it's far more likely that 'things' causing blockages are a symptom of another problem - e.g. insufficient fall on the pipe meaning that stuff isn't being swished away as it should, or a break causing things to catch and for it to get blocked up behind it. I used to do CCTVs about once a week for several years and I don't recall a single incident of recurring blockages being due to stuff put down - yes you could find these, but they were always causing blockages because of a defect with a pipe. I'm not saying it never happens, I just think it's unlikely to be the sole cause.

I really don't think you're going to be able to solve it without doing a CCTV - and due to costs and hassle, I most definitely wouldn't buy without having this problem dealt with first.

 

[Alison556]

The houses were built in 1919 I believe. The drains are obviously ancient and it wouldn't surprise me if they were breaking - we've already had our soil stack replaced because it was fractured.

When I originally mentioned it to my upstairs neighbour she too said that if she was putting anything too bulky down the toilet then her loo would block before the pipes - and that certainly makes sense.

The surveyor believes that the pipe is fractured and has been for some time and I've been fighting with the council about it ever since.

But I have the tenacity of a pit bull and won't let it go. My purchase isn't completed yet and my acceptance of their offer to sell is subject to all repairs being carried out and satisfactory survey, so I'll need to just keep on at them till they do something.

Tony, I know that we are all equally responsible for the cost of repairs - but as I said the upstairs neighbours are very much burying their head in the sand (might even be poo if the drains keep blocking). I'm in Scotland, so we don't have Freehold and Leasehold. The way it works here is that as long as there is one council tenant in a block, the council will undertake repairs, but as soon as the block becomes fully owner occupiers then we are responsible for repairs.

I know I should have told her originally about the blockage, but it was a bit embarrassing waving mucky sanitary towels about!!! Plus I honestly thought it was just a one off. Me and the other downstairs neighbour have agreed that we're gonna speak to the two upstairs and tell them that there will be bills coming to them if the drains get blocked again but in the meantime, I will get on to the Council to get them to investigate this properly - the council have already claimed responsibility for the leaking drains, which were supposedly repaired, and the drains were reported before my downstairs neighbour bought her house, so me and her are all right and to be honest, we couldn't give a stuff about the two upstairs - they're not being at all thoughtful.

My poor neighbour next door is 80 years old and on Christmas Eve when the drains blocked again, she found that every time she or her upstairs neighbour flushed the toilet or let water out of any of the sinks, it was all coming up her bath. She asked her upstairs neighbour to try and avoid running water till it was fixed but she didn't listen. This 80 year old woman was unable to use her toilet for almost three days and was panicking about the level of waste in her bath. Thoughtless beggars.

Wish me luck in my battle with the Council when I eventually get a hold of someone after Christmas.

 

[Bahco]

Why not look for another property instead within your budget?

Do you really need the hassle?

 

[Alison556]

Why not look for another property instead within your budget?

Do you really need the hassle?

Because I've lived in this house for 8 years, and apart from the drain problem, it's an excellent house in a really nice area and the biggest tempter of all is that I'm getting a HUGE discount from the council under the right to buy - I wouldn't be able to afford anything other than a designer cardboard box otherwise!

And getting back to the bloody mindedness of me - why should I have to move because the council aren't maintaining things? I will eventually have success because I won't let it go. I needed to get as much information as possible so that they can't fob me off with some rubbish.

War is declared!!

 

[Bahco]

Good luck to you Alison.

You sound like you are not fobbed off easy.

 

[Nige F]

I don``t know about Scotland...but in England your houses would be well old enough for the underground drains to be the responsibility of the council (c. 1936 is the cut off date)also if a plumber has seen bits of broken iron pipe dropped down the soil pipes....believe him I know of a soil/drain serving a block of flats that had a large stone lodged in it (from when built) and it was regularly cleaned by jetting ....until cctv identified the problem