BoilerMate III replacement

[eds1]

Hello all

Looking for a replacement for BoilerMate III thermal storage. Cold water inlet is blocked (sludge) which needs some new plumbing work and recently, the diverter valve failed and our CH is on always. British Gas dont want to know about BoilerMate and other CH cover providers exclude BM too.

Potterton Suprima 40 boiler downstairs is working fine and hence would be inclined to retain it. Just wondering if its the right time replace BM3 with a more reliable unit and someone suggested BoilerMate BP as an alternative to BM3. If so, would this involve additional plumbing / re-wiring?

Any advice would be most appreciated.

Thanks
Eds

 

[mickyg]

what size is the property and how many radiators of what size do you have?

 

[eds1]

3 bed semi. Total of 9 radiators in the house. Current BM3 is 100L capacity.

Thanks

 

[mickyg]

Ok, it sounds like the suprima may just be big enough to cope with your radiator output on a normal system, but you may want to carry out a heat loss calculation of your property. You may want to look into replacing the unit with an unvented cylinder. Unfortunately there is a nuisance poster on this site who will probably fill up this thread with nonsense about unvented cylinders and how inferior they are. If you do go for a thermal store then I would avoid Gledhill like the plague and maybe looking at a unit from dps.

 

[eds1]

My knowledge is very limited and I'll google for some info on unvented cylinder. Personally I am not inclined towards a thermal storage. If I go for an unvented cylinder, would that involve significant modification to the existing system?

Thank you

 

[mickyg]

My knowledge is very limited and I'll google for some info on unvented cylinder. Personally I am not inclined towards a thermal storage. If I go for an unvented cylinder, would that involve significant modification to the existing system?

Thank you

no its usually a very straight forward job.

 

[eds1]

Thanks

 

[SidDIYer]

Thanks

Please post once you have installed the new unit and share your experience. I have a BM II that needs replacing one day and am also looking for an unvented cylinder.

Many thanks.

 

[mickyg]

As you can see Sid was unfortunate enough to catch the attention of the retired thermal store salesman who''s now mostly lost the plot. He seems to have dissapeared for a while thankfully. I've replaced quite a few BMs with UV cylinders. I usually use Copperform cylinders, good price and 25yrg gtee.

 

[eds1]

Local heating engineer came around and suggested replacing BM3 with Boilermate BP (125L capacity). He claimed it to be a straight swap and fully compatible with the existing Potterton Suprima 40 boiler. He is not for UV cylinder.

Looks like every engineer / company have their own opinion (BG and npower for combi boiler only whereas local heating guy's choice is BM BP)

Will post updates

 

[SidDIYer]

Local heating engineer came around and suggested replacing BM3 with Boilermate BP (125L capacity). He claimed it to be a straight swap and fully compatible with the existing Potterton Suprima 40 boiler.

Hmmm....is it really a straight swap? Here are at least two things you may want to consider.

Boilermate BP
Boilermate 3

Assuming that the information at the above two sites is correct :

1. The Boilermate III acts as a CH buffer for the heating. This means that the boiler does not heat the radiators directly, but instead heats the water in the thermal store which is then pumped around the radiators. This allows for a smaller boiler to be used. According to the above, the Boilermate BP thermal store water is heated indirectly by the boiler and is not passed around the radiators. The boiler heats the radiators directly. i.e. your boiler may not be large enough to heat all your radiators and may have been sized for the BM III.

2. The Hot Water heat exchange in the Boilermate BP is an internal coil through the thermal store which is the same as my Boilermate II. This arrangement is prone to scaling up. With the Boilermate III, the heat exchanger was moved to an external unit that can be replaced if it scales without having to replace the entire cylinder. Thus the BP design seems to have taken a step backwards.

Just some thoughts - I'm no expert so please do get some professional advice.

Depending on the amount of how water you use, you may find an unvented cylinder to be more efficient. My BM II keeps 125L of water hot all the time and I don't use that much hot water!

 

[GaytonTonner]

Hello all

Looking for a replacement for BoilerMate III thermal storage. Cold water inlet is blocked (sludge) which needs some new plumbing work and recently, the diverter valve failed and our CH is on always. British Gas dont want to know about BoilerMate and other CH cover providers exclude BM too.

Potterton Suprima 40 boiler downstairs is working fine and hence would be inclined to retain it. Just wondering if its the right time replace BM3 with a more reliable unit and someone suggested BoilerMate BP as an alternative to BM3. If so, would this involve additional plumbing / re-wiring?

Any advice would be most appreciated.

Thanks
Eds

Look at Advance Appliances stainless steel stores. A direct replacement. Always fit a Magnabooster filter on CH return to the store.
Always fill with X-100.
Fit a Smart pump on the CH circuit and then you can have TRVs on all rads and no nuisance central room stat.

http://advanceappliances.co.uk/gas_or_oil_thermal_store_systems.html

Take no notice of jobbing plumbers who know sweet nothing of thermal storage. They will direct you to potentially explosion unvented cylinders not knowing that thermal storage offers CH buffering and instant rad heat ups, no boiler cycling, etc. They think they are the same. Your system is geared to thermal storage, replace with a superior well made unit.

 

[GaytonTonner]

I've replaced quite a few BMs with UV cylinders. I usually use Copperform cylinders, good price and 25yrg gtee.

You are the one who clearly didn't know how the Gledhill Systemate worked saying it needed 80C flow temps. The Systemate is a DHW only thermal store heated via a coil like any other cylinder. You never knew that and condemn thermal stores because you haven't much of a clue at all about them.

You obviously rip out perfectly good thermal stores and leave the customer with an inferior system to what he had previously. So the customer paid a lot of money to move back 5 paces.

 

[GaytonTonner]

Local heating engineer came around and suggested replacing BM3 with Boilermate BP (125L capacity). He claimed it to be a straight swap and fully compatible with the existing Potterton Suprima 40 boiler.

Hmmm....is it really a straight swap? Here are at least two things you may want to consider.

Boilermate BP
Boilermate 3

Assuming that the information at the above two sites is correct :

1. The Boilermate III acts as a CH buffer for the heating. This means that the boiler does not heat the radiators directly, but instead heats the water in the thermal store which is then pumped around the radiators. This allows for a smaller boiler to be used. According to the above, the Boilermate BP thermal store water is heated indirectly by the boiler and is not passed around the radiators. The boiler heats the radiators directly. i.e. your boiler may not be large enough to heat all your radiators and may have been sized for the BM III.

2. The Hot Water heat exchange in the Boilermate BP is an internal coil through the thermal store which is the same as my Boilermate II. This arrangement is prone to scaling up. With the Boilermate III, the heat exchanger was moved to an external unit that can be replaced if it scales without having to replace the entire cylinder. Thus the BP design seems to have taken a step backwards.

Just some thoughts - I'm no expert so please do get some professional advice.

Depending on the amount of how water you use, you may find an unvented cylinder to be more efficient. My BM II keeps 125L of water hot all the time and I don't use that much hot water!

The Boilermate BP is a DHW only thermal store. The cylinder can be heated directly by the boiler with the lower boiler coil heating used for the CH circuit to stop sludge entering the cylinder. The boiler works better then.

The internal coil can be descaled. They scale inside the coil. Full bore valves can be in place to flush the coil through with high pressure mains water and easy fill and trap anti-scale fluids - fill the coil and leave to descale, then flush out.

Many have been replaced by cowboys and all the coil needed was a descale. Anti-scale measures should be in place in any hard water area on any system.

Advance Appliance will supply a stainless store with an external plate heat exchanger - ring them. This guy did one. A search on this forum brings lots up. Ignore the jobbing plumbers who nothing of thermal storage.
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=137289&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Gledhill say:
"This actually makes the new unit much easier for the uninitiated to understand and has reduced the cost of the Boilermate substantially. Please don't hesitate to call for more info."

The biggest problem with thermal stores is ignorance, as these threads display.

 

[SidDIYer]

Local heating engineer came around and suggested replacing BM3 with Boilermate BP (125L capacity). He claimed it to be a straight swap and fully compatible with the existing Potterton Suprima 40 boiler.

Hmmm....is it really a straight swap? Here are at least two things you may want to consider.

Boilermate BP
Boilermate 3

Assuming that the information at the above two sites is correct :

1. The Boilermate III acts as a CH buffer for the heating. This means that the boiler does not heat the radiators directly, but instead heats the water in the thermal store which is then pumped around the radiators. This allows for a smaller boiler to be used. According to the above, the Boilermate BP thermal store water is heated indirectly by the boiler and is not passed around the radiators. The boiler heats the radiators directly. i.e. your boiler may not be large enough to heat all your radiators and may have been sized for the BM III.

2. The Hot Water heat exchange in the Boilermate BP is an internal coil through the thermal store which is the same as my Boilermate II. This arrangement is prone to scaling up. With the Boilermate III, the heat exchanger was moved to an external unit that can be replaced if it scales without having to replace the entire cylinder. Thus the BP design seems to have taken a step backwards.

Just some thoughts - I'm no expert so please do get some professional advice.

Depending on the amount of how water you use, you may find an unvented cylinder to be more efficient. My BM II keeps 125L of water hot all the time and I don't use that much hot water!

The Boilermate BP is a DHW only thermal store. The cylinder can be heated directly by the boiler with the lower boiler coil heating used for the CH circuit to stop sludge entering the cylinder. The boiler works better then.

The internal coil can be descaled. They scale inside the coil. Full bore valves can be in place to flush the coil through with high pressure mains water and easy fill and trap anti-scale fluids - fill the coil and leave to descale, then flush out.

Many have been replaced by cowboys and all the coil needed was a descale. Anti-scale measures should be in place in any hard water area on any system.

Advance Appliance will supply a stainless store with an external plate heat exchanger - ring them. This guy did one. A search on this forum brings lots up. Ignore the jobbing plumbers who nothing of thermal storage.
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=137289&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Gledhill say:
"This actually makes the new unit much easier for the uninitiated to understand and has reduced the cost of the Boilermate substantially. Please don't hesitate to call for more info."

The biggest problem with thermal stores is ignorance, as these threads display.

Here's the full quote from the Gledhill website. I think you were being a little selective.

For those wishing to replace earlier versions of the Boilermate and Systemate please be advised that the new BP model differs internally. Earlier models contained various components (pumps, circuit boards, timers etc) that must now be added externally. This actually makes the new unit much easier for the uninitiated to understand and has reduced the cost of the Boilermate substantially.

GT you seem to have a lot of knowledge about heating systems and thermal stores in particular. I think you need to find a better way to get your points across. If what you say is correct and thermal stores are better than unvented systems then you should be able to make those arguments logically using facts and without having to denigrate contributors on this forum by calling them "jobbing plumbers" or "ignorant". Shouting down people who do not agree with you does not help your arguments, it actually detracts from them.

I myself am not in the plumbing trade and am here to learn. I would like to read reasoned logical arguments supported by facts and will use whatever information I can glean to help me to decide what to replace my BM II with.

All the best.