boxing in a boiler for fire regs

[acetrickster]

Hi, I need to box in a boiler that is located in a main escape corridor after a recent regs visit. All the usual apply metal stud, fire board intumescent seals etc, however, what I need to know is what space does the boiler require around it and does it need intumescent vents in the housing?, space is at an absolute premium and if the space the housing takes up is too big the whole system will need to be moved. Any thoughts? anyone, No work is required to the boiler or pipework/flue simply a fire rated cover.

Thanks

richard.

 

[petit_pablo]

As you havent told us the boiler, your guess is as good as mine.

Recommend obtaining the Manufacturers instructions or contacting the boiler manufacturers direct

 

[Agile]

Unfortunately I cannot spell that word begining with "n" which comes to mind when reading the first posting!

Many older boilers need ventilation to the compartment they are fittted inside.

This is the first time I have heard of this requirement and gas meters are often fitted in entrance halls in flats without any problems.

If thats a fire brigage inspection then the comment made to me by a fireman last month that they go to a lot of boilers and dont know anything about them so can only turn them off.

Of course without knowing more I cannot make any judgement but I suspect its NOT actually required and that you may be the victim of an over zealous person.

Tony

 

[acetrickster]

HI, thanks for the replies, The inspection was done by the council as part of an HMO inspection and compliance visit, the fire brigade are fine with it. The council inspector (Scotland) wanted it covered in to comply with the regs THEY have in place. The boiler is about 2 years old (am not working there today so cant get the model no but it is a worcester condensor room sealed with no internal clock the expansion and clock etc are remotely located) This is also the council who insist on the vents in other large cupboards containing boilers to be blocked up or replaced with intumescent ones. Happy days.......

 

[Agile]

You should read their regulations very carefully as it might have been misinterpreted.

It certainly does not seem to be a requirement in London. One of my ex-trainees is a reg gas engineer and he has been on the HMO course and never mantioned anything about that to me.

In theory you could complain to the Scottish Prime Minister.

I dont expect a 2 y.o. Worcester to need compartment ventilation but it does need checking.

Tony

 

[acetrickster]

Thanks Tony, I strongly supect your right, but as it's a licensing issue, they can simply refuse to grant the license as it's delegated powers and a renewal not a new application. it really is a they say 'jump' scenario but your point is taken on board and I am going to ask for clarifacation as the building regs and fire boys have no issue at all with it. It is proably less hastle to spend the money and box it in than fight it but if the box required is too big then it's gloves off cause I am not having the system moved.

 

[acetrickster]

Just found out it's a worcester greenstar 12i system boiler.

 

[petit_pablo]

Wont need ventlation then just adequate space around it for servicing / maintenance

 

[Agile]

Thanks Tony, I strongly supect your right, but as it's a licensing issue, they can simply refuse to grant the license as it's delegated powers and a renewal not a new application. it really is a they say 'jump' scenario but your point is taken on board and I am going to ask for clarifacation as the building regs and fire boys have no issue at all with it. It is proably less hastle to spend the money and box it in than fight it but if the box required is too big then it's gloves off cause I am not having the system moved.

In that case as they apparently approved it last year as it is then you could ask them to state what regulation has changed and why they require it and apparently no other councils do.

Tony

 

[acetrickster]

Just found the system manuals online and found the necesary info, which is a bit weighty for my needs 200mm to the sides and 100mm to the front and 30mm above the elbow or 300 top and bottom and 100 to the front and sides. I think it's gonna be a fight... the regs havn't changed but the official has, and apparently it was not picked up and recorded on the last visit so he is treating it as a new instalation.

 

[Agile]

Those are maintenance clearances.

As long as the wholecover comes off so the boiler can be maintained then only a small distance of about 30 mm is required to enable air circulation around the boiler and prevent any combustible surfaces from being too close to the boiler.

I still think he is in a difficult position to substandiate his position.

Because I dont like little hitlers I would politely ask him to reconsider his position and if he still insists then I would advise him in writing that you wil have the box constructed because you must have the certificate but "without prejudice" to taking the matter further with the objective or reclaiming the cost of the boxing if you win your case.

That kind of thing can sometimes rattle the cage of some of these people. I would then follow it up with a letter to the Chief Excutive of the council asking him to reconsider the position. Most would back down at that point if they cannot find any grounds to support his position.

As a last resort you could take the Council to the County Court. Fighting their position would cost them hundreds and they are unlikely to let it proceed to the Court because of the bad publicity it would give them.

But of course to do this required adequate skill to write proper leters and keep full written records to use if it went to Court.

Tony

Tony

 

[acetrickster]

Top info! thanks Tony. I'll let you know the outcome.

 

[Agile]

If the cost involved is less than £5000 yo can use the online small claims procedure and the cost to you is just £35 to start the case.

However, you must send a letter to the council BEFORE taking action and it must be headed "Letter before Action" and state what you think they have done wrong and what you would like them to do to put it right ( such as paying you the cost of construction of the box ).

In your case I would recommend you send him a written request to advise you under what legislation he is requiring the box. You can add that neither the fire service nor building regulations require it.

Tony

 

[tryitandsee]

I have had two HMO's registered and know what it's like to get the license issued.

With all my battles with the HMO's council team, attack was not the right way to go. They have been issued guide lines to follow and they will not move from these. If fire was to start from this boiler (and you had not boxed it in) and it being located in the main fire escape area; all sorts of liabilities start being questioned, let alone your own insurance cover/validity.

As Agile has said, someone is being perhaps over zealous with this requirement.

If as you say, your fire guys (I assume your local fire brigade) don't have a problem with it, can you not instigate them to issue a letter to the licencing Council to relax/allow the siting of this boiler without boxing.
I would have thought that the boiler casing was in its self, half hour rated anyway, as long as the wall it is located on, was also. Don't see the problem.

Councils are more than happy to accept change if the 'buck' gets passed on.

 

[Agile]

You will not be able to get the Fire Department to start a battle with the Council.

What you might get is to ask them in writing to confirm that they have no requirement for the boiler to be boxed in and that in their experience room sealed boilers are not a fire risk.

The reality is that this kind of boiler is not a fire risk although the boiler casing is not fire rated as such.

You could also get a letter from Worcester to confirm their boilers do not need boxing and that they have not had any of their boilers start any fires!

All of these letters could be used to support your case if you took it to a court. They could first also be used to support your complaint to the Chief Excutive.

If the council officer did have any guidelines then you could question where they came from and exactly who had writted that part. The reality is that it cannot hold water but they can be surprisingly difficult to change their mind.

Tony