Brick selection below DPC - advice urgently requested!

[RichieR]

Hi everyone - new to the site - PLEASE can I have a little advice? I'm an amateur round here...

I'm having a party-wall built as part of a kitchen extension. The builders have used engineering bricks up to the DPC at 150mm (that's where they've got to today). My neighbour is angry because he wants London Stock bricks (ie. expensive) facing him, not three layers of engineering bricks - he reckons the builders are just trying to cut costs.

We have a party wall award that verbally specifies London Stock brickwork. However, the plans (as approved by the council, and copies of which are attached to the party wall award) do indeed specify engineering bricks below the DPC. So the PWA basically gives conflicting guidance.

Now the builders are saying this is a building regs. requirement - which I'm not sure is the case. So here are my questions:
- is this a building regs. requirement?
- even if not building regs reqt. is it best practice; would it be poor construction to use London Stock bricks below the DPC?
- what should I do?

I have 2 options:

- tell the neighbour he has to live with it because the PWA is unclear, and anyway the plans came first and have been published; also I want the security of engineering bricks below the DPC
- tell the builders they have messed up, they should have followed the guidance in the PWA, and they have to undo a day's work

Grateful for any thoughts! Thanks

 

[noseall]

The builders have used engineering bricks up to the DPC at 150mm. My neighbour is angry because he wants London Stock bricks (ie. expensive) facing him, not three layers of engineering bricks

Tell your neighbour to go jump in a lake.

What the builders have done is standard practice. It is fairly typical to have a differing brick below dpc than that above, particularly if the main facing brick is not fl rated.

There are more suitable and less suitable colours of semi engineering bricks available. i.e. blue, red, brown etc. There are also facing bricks which will be suitable for use below dpc.

The upshot is that whatever is suitable will be used for the purpose and has nowt to do with what your neighbour thinks is best on his eye.

After all, we are only talking about a few courses showing. Your neighbour is a pillock.

 

[RichieR]

Many thanks noseall - very clear!

Could you clarify what the rating is you are talking about for the bricks?

 

[noseall]

Many thanks noseall - very clear!

Could you clarify what the rating is you are talking about for the bricks?

fl rating refers to a bricks' resistance to frost etc and dictates whether it is suitable for below dpc usage.

If a London stock had such a rating (unlikely) then it would be suitable for this purpose.

 

[^woody^]

London bricks are barely good enough above DPC, let alone below

However, check on the Hanson site but I think that most Londons have an F1 rating which means not suitable below DPC

Planning permission controls the actual material to be used and this will override everything.

Building regs will have their own requirement (ie a suitable frost resistant brick) but this wont override planning permission but that doe not mean that you will be allowed to supersede any planing permission

But your problem here will be that the PW Award has specified a particular brick (BTW- you cant have a verbal PW Award)

If the Award does specify London Bricks then you should use those or else you are in breach of it.

You need to get the Award altered to take account of the fact that London bricks are not suitable. And this should be at no charge as its a stupid mistake to make to specify unsuitable bricks

I can't understand your comment about the neighbour wanting "expensive" London stock bricks. They are pennies different in price

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Any bricks bellow dpc level should be grade F2.

 

[theoldun]

Quote have a party wall award that verbally specifies London Stock brickwork.
No such thing as verbally specifies in PWA

Quote do indeed specify engineering bricks below the DPC. So the PWA basically gives conflicting guidance.
PWA must agree with B Regs

Quote is this a building regs. requirement?
To comply with B Regs, bricks below ground level should be F2 frost rated which both class B and class A engineering bricks are. There are still London Stock Bricks manufactured to imperial size. If you have these then they are also F2 rated and could be used below ground, but if you have reclaimed stocks then they could be F0, F1 or F2 rated. Any ones guess depending on when they were manufactured.

Conclusion. If side of wall facing neighbour is only say 4m long, you could wack three course or two course facing in above ground level and up to DPC level. Approx 55 bricks and this will keep every thing sweet for any future problems, which it sounds you are going to have, or tell him that your bricks do not stand up to British Standards for work below DPC, or tell him to take a flying F*ck at a rolling doughnut.

Feel sure that nose will not mind us answering last question Nose is using the new European Standards with a rating of FL where as we are using the old BS standard rating of F2, which most manufacturers are still using. FL and F2 are basically the same.
oldun

 

[theoldun]

Woody,
Hanson LBC do not make London Stocks.
Know of one manufacturer of hand made London Stocks and they are F2 rated.
Price guess £1400 per 1000.
Reclaimed London Stocks including VAT and delivery £1100.
Not exactly cheap are they.
OP is using London Stocks all as specified in PW Award, so what is your problem
oldun

 

[^woody^]

, so what is your problem

A bit of dry skin on my hands and I suppose food prices could be cheaper, but otherwise things are fine, thanks

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Here you go ^woody^ //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=253404&start=0

 

[stuart45]

I think woody has misread London stocks for London flettons. Big difference in price. Don't know who picked yellow as the colour for London, as they end up black after a couple of weeks.

 

[^woody^]

FMT, you are so kind ... unlike some of the more uncaring and abrupt older generation

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

The old have no manners sometimes.

 

[RichieR]

Many thanks everyone for your very useful advice...to clarify
- Engineer's drawings, as approved by council planning, specify engineering bricks below the DPC
- The very same drawings are an attachment to the PWA. This is in conflict to the actual text that appears in the PWA. PWS has screwed up massively - this conflict should have been noted weeks ago and we could have discussed in advance, rather than mid-build.

Neighbour therefore has an understandable grievance, however building regs. and planning permission will definitely trump anything the PWA has to say (especially as it's ambiguous).

My understanding following my own research is that
- building regs section 5 don't specify a type or standard of brick below DPC.
- building inspectors are, however, required to ensure the use of suitable materials throughout. This is at their discretion - it is reasonable and normal for them to insist on weather-resistance below the DPC.

So if the building inspector tells me he requires weather-resistant bricks, my neighbour will have to do all the things you have politely suggested otherwise we will consider taking it down (but probably won't do so as planning permission comes first).

 

[theoldun]

A bit of dry skin on my hands and I suppose food prices could be cheaper, but otherwise things are fine, thanks

Couple tips from theoldun. If you urinate on your hands each morning that will cure dry skin and harden your hands up sufficently to do a days hard work. Food prices. Sorry can not help you on that problem. Try Aldi

FMT, you are so kind ... unlike some of the more uncaring and abrupt older generation

The old have no manners sometimes.

If the above comments by you two gentleman are directed to us, then may we say thank you very much for such respectful compliments.
oldun