Building Notice or Full Plans Application?

[domdee]

I've just searched to try and answer the question before posting...

Whats is recommended/favoured by most builders/clients?
Building Notice or Full Plans Application? Both seem to cost the same on my LA website.

This is the project in question.
https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/...extension-east-yorkshire.546732/#post-4654500

There is an extra cost for my AT to draw up full plan drawings which wasn't made clear at the start. He won't quote until permission is granted either.

I am still yet to get a SE to do any cals. This will be required either way, but i understand these can be sufficient on their own for a building notice.

I would like to hear pro's and con's of both if you could help?

I am only contacting builders that i know and have seen their work who have a good reputation within my local area so would be confident of abilities.

Thanks in advance, Dom

 

[DevilDamo]

I always quote clients for a FP application as there is a lot less control with a BN application. BN applications can have very limited information in terms of drawings and specifications while FP applications are would normally include a lot more therefore not letting the builder do what they ‘think’ will comply and more what ‘will’ comply if dealt with properly.

BN applications used to be cheaper as there was less admin but they’ve increased the price to match FP applications and in some cases more because of the additional help and advice BCO’s would normally need to provide on site.

The only major difference between the two is with a FP application, you’ll receive a BR approval. Both applications come with inspections and Completion Certificate at the end. A slight minor difference between the two is that with a BN application, you’d normally be required to make payment upfront as opposed to in two stages with a FP application.

And only Local Authority Building Control would offer the option of submitting a BN or FP application where private/Approved Inspectors would just have the one option.

 

[domdee]

You've spelt that out nice and clearly! Thank you. So I'm guessing you're in the building design/regs trade???

Surely there must be some advantages to a BN application? For instance I am led to believe there is more scope to adjust or evolve the build if things crop up or change without further asking for permission so to speak. Is this correct?

To be honest I am not ruling out a FP app, but then again I would also be willing to pay for reg drawings and then submit a BN app if there was a degree of flexability.

I would like to hear a few more for's and against's of both if there are any?

Thanks

 

[wessex101]

If you go down the Building Notice route who is going to take responsibility for ensuring the work complies with the Building Regulations? You, the builder, the AT? or are you just going to wing it and if the BCO says it doesn't comply you'll be happy to tear the non-compliant work down and do it again?

The other aspect of using the Building Notice, assuming you don't have detailed construction drawings, is what does the Builder use to prepare his quote/tender? I assume the Planning drawings which are woefully lacking in details, so you start your project on the slippery slope of incomplete information, ambiguity, assumptions and misunderstanding which inevitably leads to delays and extra costs.

By the way if your AT is refusing to provide a fee quote for detailed construction /Building Regs drawings before Planning is approved he is a plonker.

 

[DevilDamo]

So I'm guessing you're in the building design/regs trade???

Yes, as are many others here.

I am led to believe there is more scope to adjust or evolve the build if things crop up or change without further asking for permission so to speak. Is this correct?

No, as that can be done irrespective of what type of application is submitted. The BCO can request amended or further details with either option.

I’d only recommend people to use BN applications for small works that require little or no guidance from a professional, e.g. a non-exempt porch, part or full removal of a load bearing wall, etc...

There is that added reassurance with FP applications that it has been designed, detailed and specified in accordance with the BR’s along with having a BR approval.

 

[tony1851]

If your AT is refusing to provide a fee quote for detailed construction /Building Regs drawings before Planning is approved he is a plonker.

Genuine question: why would he be a plonker? Quite often, planning officers want things changing, which has implications for the complexity of subsequent B/R drawings. So until an planning approval is received, the AT doesn't know what will be involved for the detailed drawings.

 

[wessex101]

Genuine question: why would he be a plonker? Quite often, planning officers want things changing, which has implications for the complexity of subsequent B/R drawings. So until an planning approval is received, the AT doesn't know what will be involved for the detailed drawings.

We provide fee quotes based on the client's brief. If we had to wait until Planning permission was obtained that would introduce a massive delay to the process and uncertainty for the client as you could provide a very competitive quote for the Planning Application then rinse the sh*t out of the client with an inflated quote for Building Regs. drawings (Hang on a minute I'm starting to see the sense in your plan).
If the brief has to change because of changes to the Planning application then you simply revise your fee quote for Building Regs accordingly.
Having said that it is pretty basic stuff to make sure you have nailed down the client brief from the earliest opportunity so I am struggling to think of an instance where I have had to revise my fee quote unless the client makes significant changes after instructions are received.
So for this case I would have based my fee quote on the scope of works agreed for the Planning application. If the Planners indicated they were going to refuse the two storey rear extension and the client lost his bottle and opted for a single storey extension not only would I charge for the revised planning drawings but I would revise my quote for the Building Regs drawings to reflect the reduced scope of works. Or if the client suddenly had a rush of blood to the head and out of the blue decided they wanted to add a loft conversion then up goes the fee quote. Obviously I always advise clients not to instruct me to commence the Building Regs drawings until Planning permission is secured unless they agree to take the risk for abortive works.
Doesn't everyone have an agreed scope of works before they start work or is it just me?

 

[DevilDamo]

I’m similar to @wessex101 so the client has all the costs at the beginning so is aware of the overall figure, which most if not all prefer instead of being open ended.

Similarly to the above, if the LPA request changes prior to a formal determination being made, then depending on the extent of the changes may impact the BR fees.

If the client changes their mind post Planning, then there will most probably be additional fees both from a Planning (if needed to go back in for amendments) and BR point of view. With the latter, my engineer would revise his fee and the BR application fee to the Council may also change.

 

[^woody^]

Building notices are only for if you are doing the work yourself and know what you are doing, or you know and implicitly trust the builder to know what he is doing.

Otherwise, there is no control on the work, nor the costs and its a major risk for the client.

And that's it.

Having said that you can get a complete ****e set of plans drawn up, which pass building control approval, but leave the builder scratching his head as they bear little resemblenace to what is required on site.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I always give a pretty accurate price for BR approval dwgs at the same time I do the planning quote, unless the job goes horribly wrong or the clients brief wildly changes along the way it's usually near as dammit right in which case you just adjust the quote accordingly but at least the client has a good idea. Anyone unwilling to quote at the pre-planning stage sounds like they're unconfident as to what can be achieved planning wise.

 

[^woody^]

I always give a pretty accurate price for BR approval dwgs at the same time I do the planning quote, unless the job goes horribly wrong or the clients brief wildly changes along the way it's usually near as dammit right in which case you just adjust the quote accordingly but at least the client has a good idea. Anyone unwilling to quote at the pre-planning stage sounds like they're unconfident as to what can be achieved planning wise.

Why can't you give a fixed quote right at the start? What could possibly change to cause you to want more money for designing the thing you said you could design initially?

 

[domdee]

Too ****ed to comment at the moment. I will review your comments and come back to you in at Am of wed. Thanks for inputs!

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Why can't you give a fixed quote right at the start? What could possibly change to cause you to want more money for designing the thing you said you could design initially?

I said my quote for BR was pretty accurate and it's usually near as dammit right so WTF are you talking about? If the client changes his mind as they're inclined to do so and is their perogative or the feasibility leads you down a different design path and you end up putting in for planning for something not allowed for at the start of the job the BR quote might be different too. Have you had a persistent cough lately?

 

[^woody^]

I said my quote for BR was pretty accurate and it's usually near as dammit right so WTF are you talking about

Easy tiger

What I'm taking about is that a quote is a fixed price. How can your quote be "near enough" accurate, when it should be dead accurate and not changed? And that quote should be itemised to state extactly what services it includes and does not include.

I would expect any designer to discuss the requirements with the client, and then base a fixed quote on that using their knowledge and experience of planning regulations and building standards, plus any other limitations.

The only changes to costs (which are not changes to a quote, but are extra to it) would be where things outside the original quote crop up - and these should only be purely unforessen things, not something the designer forgot about. And for these, any good designer will have included a schedule of fees for such possible extras with the initial quote, or submit a new quote.

So tiger, the quote should be the quote not "near as dammit".

 

[domdee]

I have read through your replies now that I aren't seeing double (got carried away on gin last night).

Thanks for taking the time!

After speaking further with the AT, he has quoted me an appox. amount and said it would be an additional £XXX. This is what I was not prepared for as I thought it was included in the initial price. I understand why reg's are done after PP is granted as the design may need to be altered to satisfy planning requirement. But as mentioned, a price is agreed prior to a design, the reg's to satisfy that design should also be agreed prior IMO. Not approx. And should definitely be made clear at the initial consultation

I have also contacted a few other firms (rightly or wrongly) and they have told me they could do the work for a better price, and if I was to obtain the CAD drawings from my AT rather than PDF files some could do an even better price. Stick or Twist??? Maybe worth letting a new firm do their own measuring for added security if I was to go down that route???

I would trust my builders as I have vetted them quite thoroughly before contacting them for a quote, but I like the fact there is some reassurance with FP. I suppose the builders cannot deviate from the approved reg's in favour of his own preferences. And if a BCO was not happy with something I could then argue referring to the reg's drawings if I and/or my builder disagreed with them.

So thanks for helping me come the the FP decision, seems like a no-brainer! Just need to decide if to proceed with my AT or employ a new one.