Bus bars and MCBs

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I'm fitting a new circuit for a kitchen as I found that all sockets in the whole house were on a ring of 32Amp on cable that measures just less than 2mm :eek:

Brought a new MCB from screwfix assuming that they all follow the same pattern... of course that was a stupid assumption.

The new MCB does not align with the old ones and so the busbar that joins the RCD with the protected circuit MCBs does not line up with the new MCB incomer. :(

What are the restrictions/recommendations for using wire instead?

the M CBis 32A, can I
A) just loop into the nearest MCB on the busbar with 6mm wire
B) loop back to the RCD with 6mm
C) replace all the MCBs and RCD so they line up
D) one of the above with bigger with wire as the RCD is rated at 80A
E) replace the busbar with wire - and if so, how thick?
 
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What is the CSA of the wiring in the circuit?
What make is the old CU, can you upload a photo?
You shouldn't start modifying a consumer unit as it won't be fully type tested.
I take it you are aware of Part P?
 
Cross Sectional Area (CSA) is the usual way to quote the size of conductors in electrical wiring. What CSA did you replace the existing wire with?

Most MCBs are designed/manufactured to fit only a specific make (sometimes a specific model) of consumer unit.

You should not tamper with the standard interconnections in your consumer unit. You may be asking a piece of wire to carry not only the load from a specific MCB but also the sum of the loads upstream of it. very bad idea....
 
>What is the CSA of the wiring in the circuit?
The new ring is in 4mm which I know is well over spec for 32A, but I wanted to able to run it in an insulated ceiling for another circuit.

>What make is the old CU
legrand
new MCB is British General

>You shouldn't start modifying a consumer unit as it won't be fully type tested.
Perhaps I overstated the issue, it's only that the new MCB clamps forward to the bar and the old ones backwards - which leads to about 5mm of misalignment. the MCBs still clip into the same rails etc etc. I guess my question is probably "does the busbar count as part of the consumer unit"

>I take it you are aware of Part P?
Yup, already added and had certified a circuit for utility room [although for that I didn't have this issue as I reused a trip that had been misappropriated from the cooker for an unsuitable radial on 2.5mm new coloured cable - This house is full of hacks!!]

>You may be asking a piece of wire to carry not only the load from a specific MCB but also the sum of the loads upstream of it. vegry bad idea....
Yup, I know the theory from university ;) problem isn't whats safe - I'm pretty sure I have that covered, it's whats considered suitable before I pay someone to have a look at it!
 
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The busbar does count as part of the consumer unit which will have been designed/manufactured to meet BS/EN standards. If you modify it then you would be liable for its performance and you would need to certify it.

Since you have certified (or had certified) one of the circuits then you will know what the Ze and resultant PSSC is at the CU so this alone will probably tell you what could happen if something goes wrong.

What was wrong with the original 32amp MCB?
 
Spark123, Yes, those, and I would return them and get the right ones if there was somewhere locally to get them.

If the busbar was shortened to not reach the new breaker /could/ the unit be certified with a suitable wire making the final link?
Would the whole system need certification - and if so what extra work would this involve beyond what happens anyway for a circuit certification?


>Ze and resultant PSSC is at the CU
Some of these acronyms even the internet doesn't know how to decipher ;)

Z I assume is impedance, Ze - earth impedance?
PSSC I am having trouble with

>so this alone will probably tell you what could happen if something goes wrong.

Logically this is behind the RCD, so any leak to earth is as protected as any socket in the house.
So "the only" thing I have to worry about is the load on the cable/bus bar causing a fire.

The bus bar is symmetrical - i.e. the RCD feeds the busbar through /exactly/ the same size connectors as those that feed each MCB. This must mean that each connection on the busbar is rated for 80A (as is the upstream RCD).

To follow through with this thinking, a single link from the new MCB to the busbar (on any connection) should only /need/ to be able to carry the rated load of the breaker - in this case 32A, which should be good on 6mm over this distance.

If more current makes it through the MCB than it is rated for then all bets are off, but that is standard everywhere in the system!
Also, if someone loops back out of the MCB to another new MCB then the connecting wire must be able to handle the combined load. But this isn't whet is being suggested, there is no space for more breakers, and I can't really plan for what someone unknown in the future might do!

>What was wrong with the original 32amp MCB?
It didn't exist ;)

"Originally" it would seem that the CU was set up in the following way

Isolator
->Upstairs lights
->Downstairs lights
->RCD (80A)
--->Shower (32A) 6mm radial
--->Sockets, house and kitchen (32A) ~2mm ring
--->Sockets + boiler, (16A) Utility room ~2mm radial
--->Cooker, (32A) 6mm radial

by the time we moved in
Isolator
->Upstairs lights
->Downstairs lights
->RCD (80A)
--->Shower (32A) 6mm radial
--->Sockets, house and kitchen (32A) ~2mm ring
--->Sockets + boiler, (16A) Utility room, outside lying in flowerbed, twin 13A sockets ~2mm radial
--->Under floor hearing for conservatory , (32A) 2.5mm radial surface trunked

no connection to cooker which is gas - plugged into house ring.

What I have done is:

Rewired the utility in 4mm ring, using the 32A breaker from the underfloor heating. This ring need to be 32A as it has the washing machine and dishwasher on the circuit and that overpowers the 16A trip

Added a new ring for the kitchen in 4mm, putting the underfloor heating onto this circuit. Realistically the underfloor heating + kettle are the only big items on this circuit.

Added a new radial for the cooker in 6mm (I am replacing the cooker with a gas hob + electric oven, so there is only really going to be ~13Amp on this circuit - but might as well make the most of the opportunity to fit heavy gauge wire should we want to fit an electric hob in the future)


So I am planning on removing the 16Amp trip and replacing it with a new 32A for the new ring, plus, adding a new 32A trip for the new radial into the empty slot in the MCB
 
If the busbar was shortened to not reach the new breaker /could/ the unit be certified with a suitable wire making the final link?

Define suitable.

The terminal clamp in the MCB designed to clamp onto a hardened copper bus bar may not clamp properly onto a flexible and softer copper cable. Or onto a busbar and cable in the same clamp.

How long before the joint fails. overheating occurs and subsequent damage and danger occurs.

And often the bus bar forms the major mechanical fixing for the MCB.

Bite the bullet and buy the proper consumer unit.
 
If the busbar was shortened to not reach the new breaker /could/ the unit be certified with a suitable wire making the final link?

Yes, if you have an accredited test lab and can perform all the tests required by the relevant Parts of BS EN 61439.
As has been pointed out, consumer units are type-tested with the correct MCBs fitted.
 
>Yes, if you have an accredited test lab

:LOL:
So, not by a man with a box that goes beep sitting under my stairs then.


So, the question I have obviously been trying not need answering.

Except for eBay (which i hate because you essentially have no expectation that anything will work or come in the condition that you expect) which is not something I would like to rely on for something this important.

Can anyone suggest where I might get legrand breakers from?
 

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