Cable calcs for size

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Hey guys as some of you may know that I'm studying electrical installation at York college. I haven't really worked on site yet.

Just wanted abit of help. As I'm doing cable calls etc which I've got the hang off.

Only issue I have is suggesting improvements as to smaller cable. Etc. Plus I don't know what the cable size means :( as in if their too big for a domestic property or wherever we doing the calculations for.

Is there anywhere I can make myself familiar with cable sizes. So I can say this cable is too big etc especially based on ref method etc.

Otherwise I won't know. Just need to understand what the standard sizes should me .

Thanks for any help
 
Not sure what you are getting at -

but there is no electrical reason for not using a bigger cable but it is a waste of copper and money and it might not fit in the terminals.
 
Not sure what you are getting at -

but there is no electrical reason for not using a bigger cable but it is a waste of copper and money and it might not fit in the terminals.


Yeah that's the thing. If it's too big for installation purposes. But I wouldn't have a clue as I'm not familiar with the sizes aside from a couple of sizes.
 
Yeah that's the thing. If it's too big for installation purposes. But I wouldn't have a clue as I'm not familiar with the sizes aside from a couple of sizes.
It obviously 'depends' on the calculations you're doing (considering things like circuit design current, instsllstion method, OPD rating etc.) but if what you are looking for is just a rough idea of 'what is commonly done,' then, at least in terms of domestic installations (and generally assuming T+E cable with Installation Method C )....

Lighting Circuits - 1.0 mm² is more than adequate, although for whatever historical reason, a good few people persist in using 1.5 mm².

32A Ring Final Sockets Circuits - almost invariably 2.5 mm², not the least because there is very little point in having a ring if the cable is larger than that.

Radial Sockets Circuits - commonly 4 mm² for 32A circuits and 2.5 mm² for 16A / 20A /25A ones, but 1.5 mm² (Method C) is adequate for 16A and 20A circuits and (following recent changes to regs which now allow it) even 1.0 mm² is theoretically adequate for a 16A radial.

16A Immersion circuits - as for 16A radial, above.

32A Cooker Circuits - 4 mm² (Method C) adequate, but 4 mm² far from uncommon, even if 'unnecessary', and even 6 mm² and 10 mm² not unknown.

Shower Circuits - depends upon power of shower, hence OPD rating (40A, 45A or 50A) but 10 mm² is common, sometimes 6 mm² (and even 4mm² might be adequate for a 7.5 kW shower on a 32A circuit).

If anyone disagrees with anything I've suggested, please shout

As said, those are just rough ideas, in the context of the "it depends" situation. - but I hope the above will help a bit.

Kind Regards, John
 
Yeah that's the thing. If it's too big for installation purposes. But I wouldn't have a clue as I'm not familiar with the sizes aside from a couple of sizes.

The cable can’t really be too big, unless it’s too big for the accessories being connected

Cable selection on long circuits need consideration for volt drop and sometimes you need a length of larger cable to ensure the circuit complies
 
(following recent changes to regs which now allow it) even 1.0 mm² is theoretically adequate for a 16A radial.
Common sense returns!

It was allowable under the 15th, I can't remember whether it was under the 14th.
 
The cable can’t really be too big, unless it’s too big for the accessories being connected
Agreed.
Cable selection on long circuits need consideration for volt drop and sometimes you need a length of larger cable to ensure the circuit complies
In fact, the only regulation with which one really has to (should) comply is that the voltage drop should not be so great as to "impair the safe functioning" of supplied equipment - and I somewhat struggle to think of anything whose "safe functioning" would be impaired by a low supply voltage. Everything else (in particular the 3% and 5% 'maximums') is just guidance, not a 'regulation' or 'requirement'.

It's also worth noting that VD calculations we do assume that the entire 'maxim load' of a circuit is applied at the worst possible point on the circuit (e.g. the most distant point of a radial) - which is a situation which will very very rarely be encountered in a sockets or lighting circuit (although it may occur in things like shower, cooker and immersion circuits)
 
It's also worth noting that VD calculations we do assume that the entire 'maxim load' of a circuit is applied at the worst possible point on the circuit (e.g. the most distant point of a radial) - which is a situation which will very very rarely be encountered in a sockets or lighting circuit (although it may occur in things like shower, cooker and immersion circuits)
I remember when the 17th arrived, and we moved from 4% for all, to 3% lighting and 5% for the rest, I tried to work out how the calculation had gone from 88 meters in a ring final to 106 meters. Try as I could, I could not come up with 106 meters, at that time I was a member of the IET, so on one of their meeting I asked.

And it seems Design current for circuit Ib was taken at 26 amps, it was 20 amps at centre, and 12 amps even throughout the ring final. One also had to consider the Correction factor Ct, as the Tabulated current-carrying capacity of a cable It was 42 amps, I found it was so easy to make an error, only way was to build a JavaScript program so I could feed in known valves with results to test the program had no errors.

I still use it today 1741685842360.png I built it as worried if I made an error, years latter someone could have a claim, however once built, I realised the loop impedance tester is really not accurate enough to show error made unless it was huge, measure the look impedance twice, and you can easily have 0.02Ω difference, it needs measuring twice, so 0.04Ω and the whole differential is only 0.59Ω so although in theory one can work out the volt drop, in practice not that easy.

The idea was I could run JavaScript on my mobile, but knowing 0.59Ω was the difference, one does not really need to work it out, and with a ring final, you need to find the centre. Hence, normal is R1+R2 etc.

I have once installed a supply which had to be re-done with thicker cable, lucky for me, I raised my concerns before we started, so the error was my bosses, it was the supply to a shrink wrap machine, which was rather sensitive to volt drop, there was another where we had problems with volt drop on the supply to a radial of fluorescent lights, but more down to lights drawing over the rated current with a high voltage, lucky was a 110 volt and using auto transformers, so first 20 set to 127 volts and last 5 to 110 volts.

So in the real world unusual to have a problem. But as said all too easy to make a mistake with the maths, so once calculator built, never did it the long way again.
 
In fact, the only regulation with which one really has to (should) comply is that the voltage drop should not be so great as to "impair the safe functioning" of supplied equipment - and I somewhat struggle to think of anything whose "safe functioning" would be impaired by a low supply voltage. Everything else (in particular the 3% and 5% 'maximums') is just guidance, not a 'regulation' or 'requirement'.

Motors, driving a large load with lots of inertia. A general rule, was to rate the supply cable, to match 1.5x the working load.
 
Motors, driving a large load with lots of inertia. A general rule, was to rate the supply cable, to match 1.5x the working load.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "rate the supply cable". If you're talking about the current-carrying capacity 'rating', that is not directly related to it's ability to supply any particular current, being only an indication of what current it can withstand for appreciable periods of time without coming to harm or getting so hot as to represent a fire risk.

Voltage drop obviously may impair the ability of a cable to supply start-up current at an adequate voltage, but the design (of the cable size) for that depends upon the start-up current of the motor and the minimum start-up voltage which will result in satisfactory operation - and no rule-of-thumb based on a cables 'safe' (for cable) CCC will guarantee that.
 
Voltage drop obviously may impair the ability of a cable to supply start-up current at an adequate voltage, but the design (of the cable size) for that depends upon the start-up current of the motor and the minimum start-up voltage which will result in satisfactory operation - and no rule-of-thumb based on a cables 'safe' (for cable) CCC will guarantee that.

Voltage drop, under the inertia of the starting load/current. Too great a volts drop, and you may find the motor is simply unable to get itself to speed.
 
..... I have once installed a supply which had to be re-done with thicker cable, lucky for me, I raised my concerns before we started, so the error was my bosses, it was the supply to a shrink wrap machine, which was rather sensitive to volt drop,
As I always say, it seems silly to pay much attention to (let alone 'get excited/obsessed about') within-installation VD when the amount of possible/permitted variation in supply voltage (at origin of installation0 is so large. As you know, in the UK that supply voltage may be anything from 216.2 V to 253 volts, with the great majority of installations still having something around 24 V.

Although it seems daft to sell such things for use in the UK, there may be items of equipment such as you describe which are "rather sensitive to voltage" (not 'voltage drop').

One would really hope thst anything sold for use in the UK would be able to work satisfactorily when supplied with 216.2 V. If it is, then in one of those (very common) installations with a supply voltage of about 240 V, the equipment should still function satisfactorily in the face of a within-installation VD of 10%.

One really needs to consider the voltage supplied to the equipment, not the within-installation VD. Admittedly, there is always the possibility that supply voltage (hence voltage supplied to equipment) will change, but significant changes are pretty unusual.

If one really wanted to have a situation in which a piece of equipment funcioned satisfactorily ion the fgace of the 'lowest permissible supply voltage' ABD 'the maximum {recommended) VD', then it would have to be designed to work satisfactorily down to a voltage of 204.7 V.
 
Voltage drop, under the inertia of the starting load/current. Too great a volts drop, and you may find the motor is simply unable to get itself to speed.
I obviously know that but, as I wrote, having a cable CCC 'rating' (relating to the 'safety' of the cable) of 1.5 times the motor's running current (if that's what you were suggesting) is no guarantee that the voltage supplied to the motor during start up will be adequate..
 
I obviously know that but, as I wrote, having a cable CCC 'rating' (relating to the 'safety' of the cable) of 1.5 times the motor's running current (if that's what you were suggesting) is no guarantee that the voltage supplied to the motor during start up will be adequate..

Not a guarantee, no, but having dealt with some very big motors, it is a very good rule of thumb, to ensure a motor has enough volts, to be able to start.
 

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