Calling all Speedfit experts.

[stem]

I put a screw right through the centre of a speedfit barrier pipe Friday night supplying cold mains water to our washing machine. The pipe was clipped to the vertical timber (nicely found by my stud detector) in an extension we had built last year.

Fortunately for me, I managed to obtain a speedfit connector and some inserts from a friend.

Because I had to cut a hole in the plasterboard to make the repair I couldn't get the proper pipe cutting tool through the hole, so I cut it carefully with a hacksaw blade to make sure it was a square cut and then cleaned it with a file. I Fitted the inserts, made the connection and water was restored, no leaks, so no problem, or so I thought.

Checking on the Speedfit website today, it states that you shouldn't cut speedfit pipe with a hacksaw, and it also suggests the use of an "STS" superseal pipe insert which has rubber "O" rings on it. The ones I got were standard inserts without "O" rings.

On sunday I replaced the cut plasterboard and made good the wall. In light of the above, should I open it up again and re-make the connection?

 

[corgiman]

if thatsw what the makers say that is what you should do

your call really

 

[ChrisR]

As long as you removed all the bits of swarf created by the saw I wouldn't worry about that.
Also, they didn't even make the superseal inserts for years, and they still sell the plain ones. One has to wonder why!
If the pipes are definitely inserted far enough, aren't subject to strain, and everything was clean and greased (they come with just about enough in the fitting) then I'd leave it.

 

[stem]

Thanks ChrisR

I was worried because the inserts weren't the right ones for the fitting and might cause a problem.

What you say makes sense, because the guy who gave me the fitting says that he bought it complete with the inserts, but it was a few years ago. I would prefer to leave it alone as I thought after releasing it and then refixing it might reduce its grip on the pipe.

Didn't know about the grease, so I hope there was enough in the fitting. How would you know though?

 

[Water Systems]

As long as you removed all the bits of swarf created by the saw I wouldn't worry about that.

What they want is a square cut with is burr free. The cutters don't alwasy giove this either with some leaving a sharp nip which need a file run acros it. How you acheive a stright clean square cut is yoru busienss as there is a few ways of doing it.

They cover themselves by saying use a dedicated plastic pipe cutter, to deter cowboys just hacking it.

Also, they didn't even make the superseal inserts for years, and they still sell the plain ones. One has to wonder why!
If the pipes are definitely inserted far enough, aren't subject to strain, and everything was clean and greased (they come with just about enough in the fitting) then I'd leave it.

Nor sure, however if you read thje Speedfit blurb I think the plain inserts are for when compression joints are used. The O ring in the insert is pretty recent.

I would have use a brass compression joint, not a Speedfit joint.

 

[corgiman]

not a great idea to use any kind of demountable joint in a hidden location water.

not just for gas that rule I think

 

[Water Systems]

Ideally no joints, however circumstances somwtimes dictate that joints may have to be used.

 

[Alfredo]

Whilst on call out duty last week I spent the lions share of New Years Eve bailing out an elderly persons new build bungalow on a nine month old system where two pushfits have failed so far, causing much distress to an 83 year old lady, and lots of water damage. The installation was obviously done by installers in a tearing hurry. Then I had to get the ruddy electric boiler working again...nightmare! (its an electric combi!!!!! Why??)

I'm not totally against pushfits, but care in preparation is everything, and I can tell you that if the bloke who had done the installation was there I'd have given him a piece of my mind at the very least.

Alfredo

 

[croydoncorgi]

Were these 'failures' due to joints coming completelty apart despite inserts? or were the inserts not used in the first place?

 

[Alfredo]

The plastic radiator flow pipe came out of the bedroom wall into a pushfit elbow then up into the TRV. The pipe was spewing water round the end of the pushfit, and there was no insert in the plastic pipe. There was quite a bit of grit/debris in the pushfit which can't have been doing the seal much good, but i think the lack of insert was the basic problem. The pipe cut was not brilliant, but not too bad. The other failure had been on someone else's watch.

After less than a year there are mutterings that they might a) repipe the estate in copper using drops b) kick out the electric boilers (Gledhill Electromate 2000) which are proving very troublesome, and put oil in.

Whether it happens or not is a different matter, but an elderly person is going to keel over one day with the stress. They are all worried sick. "Will it blow up in the night" is a fairly common question to our guys. We didn't do the install I hasten to add.

Alfredo

 

[corgiman]

I had a new build estate (house in excess of 3/4 mill) which used john guest and for about a year I practically lived there!!!

No inserts and no retaining clips were the main problem, that and thefact the installer MUST have been the missing bleedin link



Installers gotta love em. Every bloke I speak to who exclusivly does installation acts like he is billy big bananas! I mean come on installing is easy you have a book telling you EXACTLY how to do it and a blank canvass that is an uncarcassed house

sheesh I would like to seem them locking horns with a Keston on christmas day with no book, no tech line open and STILL get the bleeder working!!!

PS it was the low pressure switch and it took me five minutes to sort it but thats not the point

 

[stem]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'd like to sleep easily at night, but your comments are making me uneasy.

I had an extension built last summer and the builder used Speedfit to pipe up the utility room, kitchen & cloakroom / WC. When I realised he was using pushfit connections I said I would have preferred him not to use them.

Being an engineer, rightly or wrongly I feel a soldered connection offers a stronger mechanical connection, and whilst it still might leak, I feel it is less likely to blow off completely. So we compromised and the central heating pipe work was made in copper with soldered joints and the hot/cold water in Speedfit. It appears to me that Most of the Speedfit connections (elbows & tee's) are inside the partition walls or behind the fitted kitchen base units.

I take the point that it's best not to use them in inaccessible spaces, but I dont see how thats possible as a pipe running vertically inside a wall needs a elbow to bring it out through the plasterboard into the room doesn't it?

When these units fail, is it normally fairly soon after installation, and would it be reasonable to assume if they've lasted say 12 months or more they should be OK after that?

Also there is a section of pipe that runs through the roof space of the extension with 2 tees & 2 elbows. All of the pipe is fitted with insulation, but the elbows being of a larger diameter aren't. Does this pose a freezing risk? and if so can you get insulation for the Speedfit fittings?

 

[ChrisR]

As an engineer you'll have seen bathtub failure profiles and know that plastics move more with temperature than metals.
Remember though that there are millons of these things in use and, er, most of them, never leak. Of course there are no figures (afaik!).
Most of the failures are due to assembly errors, and they show up early.

Just live your life, there are more important things than plumbing, so I'm told. Check your insurance is up to date

 

[stem]

Thanks ChrisR. I'll check the small print on the policy, especially the bit where it lists all of the exclusions.

I reckon that if it doesn't mention failure of push on plumbing fittings specifically there's not much chance of it happening. In my experience anything that has the remotest possibility of someone making a claim ends up on the list of exclusions

 

[Water Systems]

As an engineer you'll have seen bathtub failure profiles and know that plastics move more with temperature than metals.
Remember though that there are millons of these things in use and, er, most of them, never leak. Of course there are no figures (afaik!).
Most of the failures are due to assembly errors, and they show up early.

Just live your life, there are more important things than plumbing, so I'm told. Check your insurance is up to date

I know a site which use Hep2O. They pressure test the first fix and the second fix. The fitters say it is quicker doing soldered copper, as there is an "average" failure of one plastic joint per house. They know with solder it will be right every time. They only use plastic to stop the ****** stealing the copper.

Sometimes the grab rings corrode after 2 to 3 years. Other times they leak for the hell of it after testing and when they want to. Sometime the grab ring just fail but still intact. They say forget the 50 years guarantees, as the makers don't play ball.

The two major gripes from the fitters is:

1. They don't like the pressure they have to use to force the 22mm pipes into the fittings.

2. Sometimes they forget the insert - easy to do. (the pipe can hold and then leak after an hour/day/years, this does not hapen with compression olives if they are missed off - you can't even tighten up).

Not one of them say they would use it on their own homes. Most say fine in the cold garage where frost might be.