Can we remove flimsy vertical trusses?

[brettjbuckley]

We recently moved into a 1966 semi and just started looking at the loft with a view to using it for light storage (after I have chipboarded the floor).

However, we have about 8 vertical trusses spanning between the floor joists and the roof. The thing is that they are very haphazardly placed and are not even properly supporting the roof. In fact, rather than spanning between the joists, they are nailed onto the side of the beams, such that any structural support relies upon the nail! In some cases, the nails are way too long and protude out of the other side of the beam, almost as if the supports were added as a quick afterthought.

Are they really offering that much support? The wood is thin and easily bends.

 

[Jasonb]

Could be there to stop the ceiling sagging?

Jason

 

[masona]

However, we have about 8 vertical trusses spanning between the floor joists and the roof.

There are known as collar beams but need to see it first.

I can tell you more with a photo if you can.............

 

[Thermo]

just because it bends doesnt mean its not offering support, could be acting in compression ie transferring a load staright down or tension ie holding a load up!

 

[brettjbuckley]

There are actually more of the supports that I had thought.
I have posted some pics. They are about 1-inch square but some are missing.

 

[masona]

What are the upright timber supporting on ? ceiling joists or on top of walls ?

 

[pieman]

it looks to me as if the vertical timber members are hangers, probably taking deflection out of the ceiling, as Jason b suggests.Their slenderness suggests they are unlikely to be in compression, but in tension. They might well move sideways if waggled, and still be doing a job stopping the ceiling joists below deflecting, assuming they attach to the ceiling joists .
The roof itself appears to be simple rafters supported on purlins.

 

[brettjbuckley]

They show the way in which the supports are simply nailed to the sides of the beams, both in the floor of the loft and also in the celing of the loft. On the last picture (the floor of the loft), you can see the back of the plasterboard where the support almost touches.

I guess the main question is "how removable are they?". They are obviously there for a reason, but removing them would make boarding the floor a lot easier!

Thanks for the responses so far.

 

[pieman]

If they are stopping excessive deflection in the ceiling, then removing them clearly runs the risk of problems, particularly the plaster cracking, and possibly problems with any built in furniture, e.g. wardrobes, sliding door gear underneath.
If you then add weight to the ceiling joists in the form of chipboard, and stored items, then the problem will be exacerbated.
You could consider

1) rationalising the positions of the hangers (place new before removing old) to make boarding easier, whilst still giving appropriate support to joists

2) inserting larger joists between the ceiling joists to upgrade it to 'floor strength'

3) if it is just light storage, a few empty cardboard boxes etc., using loft as is, bridging across joists with boards to provide access and areas to store smaller items.

 

[brettjbuckley]

I was actually considering the idea of replacing the supports one by one and where possible having the bottom of the support actually resting on the ceiling joist, rather than going right past it and being simply "nailed on" as it does now.

In this fashion, I could then saw half an inch off the bottom of the support, slide under the chipboard and then have the support resting on top of the chipboard flooring (fastened with a couple of "L" brackets) and with some long screws going right down through the chipboard and into the ceiling joist.

This way I would hopefully maintain the support whilst making flooring a lot easier as I would not need to make cutouts for the supports. Furthermore, if I -am- ever able to get rid of the supports then I will not be left with inch square holes dotted all over my loft!

I think I should get an engineer to have a look anyway, just in case.

 

[pieman]

I think I should get an engineer to have a look anyway, just in case.

I think you are wise.

 

[brettjbuckley]

I think you're right pieman, I've spoken to quite a few people at work at the general agreement is that the supports are just ceiling hangers designed to stop the bedroom ceilings from sagging.

One person has suggested that the ceiling joists might be strengthed using (as he put it) "Mechano-like supports that run along the length of the beam".

If they are ceiling hangers then my plan of moving the supports such that they rested on-top of the chipboard flooring would be pointless...

 

[shaggy]

Brett, you haven't said what the ceiling joist section is, and are they in one length wall-plate to wall-plate? You can look in building reg tables to see the recommended span for any section joist.

 

[masona]

I've spoken to quite a few people at work at the general agreement is that the supports are just ceiling hangers designed to stop the bedroom ceilings from sagging.

I'm afraid it's a bad design, if it's meant to stop the ceiling sagging then it should be on every single ceiling joists which is also be pulling the top half roof in. It's best to have a 2 or 3 run of bigger joists from wallplate to wallplate, supporting on top of internal wall and fix all ceiling joists to the new beam. This way you can do away with all the upright timber and you could even use joists hanger for the new floor level which will be heavy duty or use your exsisting ceiling joists for flooring. It's a very nice size roof and a shame not to use it as a extra room !

What area are you from ?

 

[brettjbuckley]

We're in West Yorkshire.

We're really, just looking for a "quick-fix" solution to make sure it is safe and secure. The last thing we want is to have to rebuild the ceilings or start removing roof parts to get new joists in, etc.

Tonight I'll have a look at the ceiling joists to check the thickness and also see how long they are and how they are fastened at each end. I don't know if the framework of the internal walls is offering much support or not.