Chimney breast removal - party wall dispute

[cbeebee]

Hi

Please could someone give me advice. My neighbour has removed the chimney breast in a 3 storey property on their side and has used the appropriate supports. The chimney breast on my half and the stack above are still present.

The stack has started to come lose at the top on their side/leaning and they have been advised by their builder that this is due to the condition of the brick/mortar and not related to the work already undertaken and therefore I am liable to pay for the repairs.

I was not served with party wall agreement documents etc but have been advised that I can order a stop under the act (there isnt much to stop now though!).

I wonder whether my half of the chimney is adequately supported, what is the risk of it coming down and should I have to pay for the stack repairs?

Thanks

 

[garyo]

Under the act you have the right to appoint your own surveyor at their expense, so you can cause them a lot of bother, and should be able to use this as a lever.

The problem you may have is that the work is complete, so perhaps isn't subject any more. He may well have violated the act by not serving a notice to you at the time.

It sounds to me like your neighbour is either genuinely naive, or him and his builder are hoping that you don't actually realise how much power you have/had.

Have a read-up on the act - or better still phone your local building control and ask their view - they're very friendly people!

Gary

 

[RonnyRaygun]

Have Building Control been informed?

Who designed the support? Was it designed by a structural engineer?

Is the remaining chimney breast supported on a beam or gallows brackets? Gallows brackets cannot often be used safely and a structural beam is by far the better option in almost all cases.

If a beam has been used it may be that the beam has moved on its supports (compression of masonry due to padstone being too small). It might not have been packed up sufficiently to the existing masonry, leaving room for movement. Or maybe the beam isn't strong enough and has deflected (tiny deflections of a supporting chimney beam can lead to large rotations at the top of the stack).

Obviously their builder isn't going to take responsibility, so it's up to you to do as Garyo says, and get your own Party Wall Surveyor involved.

Your neighbours broke the law by starting work on a party structure without informing you. Just make sure you follow procedures to the letter when appointing your surveyor so they have no comeback.

 

[theoldun]

If you can answer some questions, we
will try to help you out.
How long ago was the work carried out?
Is the chimney stack 2 pots or 4 pots?
Does the chimney stack sit centre of the party wall?
Have any alterations been made to chimney stack by neighbours?
Neighbours have removed their breast. What is the width and depth of the breast on your side?
You say that neighbours have used appropriate supports. How do you know this?
You say house is 3 storey. Is it town house with breast on first floor or on ground floor?
Going back to question1 is this the only fireplace in house?
Do you know whether neighbour has taken out flue from first floor joists up to underside of chimney stack, especially the flue in roof space?
What is your relationship like with neighbour?
If you could answer these questions, will be able to give you more help.
oldun.

 

[cbeebee]

I am only going off what the neighbour has said re the supports and as I am not there its difficult to be sure what the situation is.

The work was carried out in the last few weeks from what I can gather and I believe the breast wall has been removed from all three storeys.

The property is a 3 storey victorian terrace; there are 2 chimneys on one side (one redundant and the other in use) the one in question is on the other side of the property at the back.

In terms of pots etc and size I'm not sure but I believe the stack sits in the middle.

Width/depth - c. 1.5m wide and a foot and half deep ish

From what I can gather I believe they have taken it out all the way up into the roof space but again cant be 100% sure.

Thank you so much for your help everyone - this is proving quite stressful!

Neighbour relationship generally good.....

 

[RonnyRaygun]

If the work was carried out in the last few weeks and the movement has occurred since the work was carried out then at first glance it would appear that the removal of the chimney breast on their side has affected the structural integrity of the stack above roof level.

It's up to their builder / engineer to provide a solution that won't cause damage to the stack during or after construction.

You need to speak to Building Control to find out if they were informed and if so, whether they have signed off the work, and as we said before, appoint your own party wall surveyor to resolve the dispute with your neighbour. Although if your relationship with your neighbour is generally good you may be able to talk and come to an agreement without appointing a party wall surveyor. That would probably mean sharing cost of remedial works, and that would be up to both of you to decide.

 

[joinerjohn]

As the builder has only worked on their side of the party wall, I fail to see how he can now say that you have to pay. Sounds like your neighbour and the builder are trying to stitch you up.
Put it this way,, If it falls down and you have not had any work done,, could you be responsible??
I think not.
It really sounds like your neighbour is having problems and doesn't want to pay to have them sorted. The work has probably been done illegally without the involvement of BC.

 

[alittlerespect]

Hi

The defects are a direct consequence of the building activities that have been carried out by your neighbour therefore you are not responsible or accountable for the effects of their work.

The only good point in your favour is the fact that the chimney stack is leaning in your neighbours direction and if it goes fail it will fall through all floors of the neighbours house causing extensive damage to the house, so your neighbour has a very high incentive to sort out the problems that he has created.

There is no need for you to incur any costs in relation to this incident, but you must instruct your neighbour that a 'party wall agreement' must be put in place for the necessary remedial repairs (which may require the rebuilding of the remaining chimney stack). The party wall agreement must stipulate that there are no costs to be attributed to the neighbouring property owners (yourselves) in carrying out the necessary remedial works as the damage is totally attributable to the acts and/or ommissions of the builders carrying out the original building works.

One word of caution, think twice about appointing your own party wall surveyor, if you have a fall out with your neighbour you could find yourself inheriting the bill.

If you go to the following address you can upload an explanatory booklet on the Party Wall Act:
www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/partywall

 

[theoldun]

You have been given some very good advice, but, unfortunately in your present situation, most of it is in my opinion of little use to you and will tell you why.
Whilst your neighbour should have served you with a party wall notice, the Act contains no enforcement procedures for failure to serve a notice.
Now if your neighbour starts work without serving a notice, then at your expense you can go to court to seek an injunction for the work to be stopped until a party wall act has been agreed upon.
Now none of this is of any good to you, as the work has been completed.
You have been told to appoint a surveyor.
So at your expense you appoint a surveyor. The surveyor writes to your neighbour and receives no reply, or your surveyor knocks on neighbours door and neighbour tells him to b**ger of. Where are you now? Back to square one. Up sh*t creek without a paddle.
Unfortunately, I did not get all the information from you that I was looking for, but I feel that if they have taken the flue down up to the underside of the stack then the stack has not been supported correctly, and what with the age of the property and the mortar to the stack possibly being shot, the stack has dropped down on their side, and is now leaning. It is quite possible that the stack is only hanging up there on corbels, and a good strong wind will rattle it over. Could be to-morrow, 6 months time possibly never, but the point is that it has moved since works have been carried out and the structural stability has been impaired.
Ideally, it would be best to try and resolve this with your neighbour, but I do not think you are going to get any where.
This work should have been carried out under a building notice, but as they have not served a party wall notice, I very much doubt that they have applied for a building notice, so I would bite the bullet and go to your local building control and explain your position and concerns.
Ask them if this work has been carried out under a building notice and been inspected. Tell them you have been advised that the structural stability of the stack has been impaired and that the stack could be considered a dangerous structure. Ask to see the senior building inspector.
Building control can be a pain in the neck at times, but in instances like this they seem to fall over there selves to be helpful, plus building control have a lot of clout, especially on the enforcement of dangerous structures.
If all this fails, then to the best of my knowledge your only redress is through common law.
Under no circumstances would I pay anything towards repairs to the chimney.
If any readers of this post, feel that I have said something that is not correct, then would they please say so, as I would deeply regret giving wrong advice.
oldun.

 

[RonnyRaygun]

That's an interesting post Old Un. I've just done a quick bit of internet research into what you have said and it appears you are completely right. A party wall surveyor is going to be of no use now the work has been completed.

This page makes interesting reading:

http://www.malcolmhollis.co.uk/webs...noring party wall legislation.pdf?Openelement

The remedy available to an Adjoining Owner when a Building Owner has commenced work to the party wall without serving the appropriate Notice is to seek an injunction, the granting of which is at the discretion of the Court. However, once works are finished, there is no recourse or penalty under the Act if damage is subsequently discovered and the aggrieved party must rely on common law.

So the OP is obviously going to go to BC and report that they believe the work has been carried out without a building notice.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/HomeAndCommunity/Planning/BuildingRegulaions/DG_4001372
From this page BC have the right to enforce compliance with the Building Regulations.

My question is this. The OP, as you say, can report the chimney as a dangerous structure, and presumably BC will assess the chimney and decide whether or not they agree that it is dangerous. However, the ownership of the stack is shared between the OP and their neighbour. Now the onus will surely be back on the OP to prove that it was the removal of the chimney breast that has caused the stack to become a dangerous structure, otherwise they will be partly responsible for the remedial works?

So I could be wrong - and please enlighten me if I am - but it would seem that they are left with the common law route, which could be incredibly long winded and just as stressful.

For the record, I agree that they shouldn't have to pay anything towards the repairs, but if remedial works are relatively inexpensive, and they want to maintain a reasonably good relationship with their neighbour, and avoid a whole lot of stress, they might decide paying something towards the remedial works is the best option.