Chimney Breast removal

[likelex]

We are looking at putting in an offer on a 2 Bed Victorian Semi and had now paid our 2nd visit to the property and have fallen in love with it. Before we put an offer in I thought I'd come on here and ask a few questions that are bugging us. I've had to split them into sections for different sections of the forum so pls feel free to go and look at my other questions!

Brief background to help-
Classic 2 up, 2 Down, no bay at front, front door on the side - steep stairs straight up, small kitchen off the dining room. Upstairs, bedrooms above living room and dining room and bathroom off bedroom 2 above kitchen. Fireplaces in all rooms incl kitch/bath.

We are thinking that the bathroom and bedroom 2's chimney breast will need to go. Bathroom to simply create more space and bed2 as it will be in the middle of the hallway in the way when creating a new stud partition to allow separate access to the bathroom.

Just wondered whether this is something that can be done yourself with the right knowledge and supports or whether its a job to get a man in for.. What would the rough costs be? I take it it's acceptable to keep a ground floor fireplace while removing the 1st floor one? I have seen all sorts of jobs made of holding up the chimney (from dodgy planks in the loft to canter lever style brickwork just before the 1st floor ceiling) What is the best case scenario, even if its getting someone in to support the chimney and I remove all the bricks from the breasts?

Cheers,
Jon

 

[DAZB]

It is not advisable to tackle this job as a novice as you firstly need a Structural surveyor to assess the weight of the load which needs supporting and then to compile a report detailing what size and style of support is required. Building Control may also need to be informed depending on your local areas policy and not to mention the Party Wall Act which affects your neighbors property as you are effectively making changes which could have an impact on their property if not done correctly. Best bet would be to get at least 3 quotes from recommended builders and take it from there. I would alos look into the proceedure via the Web then you will at least have a bit more knowledge and are able to ask the right kind of questions of the builders.

 

[macadonald]

I'm not a builder, but consider myself to be a competent DIYer and have just removed 1 of our 2 chimney breasts. As the previous post stated, each council has it's own regulations and a quick internet search reveals loads of advice. I believe most councils will allow for gallows brackets and reinforced concrete lintel to be used in the loft. That's if the dimensions are standard.

There is the party wall act, but generally not an issue. I seem to recall that you can only remove 1 of the 2 breasts, otherwise it affects the structural integrity of the party wall.

You mentioned removing upstairs while leaving downstairs. NO, both upstairs and downstairs breasts support both flues, so you cannot remove upstairs and keep downstairs.

In terms of whether it's doable.. I did, so yes! Key thing is getting your gallows bolted in correctly with resins set bolts and gettign the lintel in. Once that's down, it's simply a case of removing downwards. Very messy though, so you want to seal off the room!

 

[tim00]

likelex, most of your recent questions could have been fully answered if you had taken it upon yourself to research on here. You are not a newbie.

macadonald, why would you install a gallows bracket and a lintel? Setting bolts in "resin" is a method, there are other methods.
It's often the case to remove the upper c/breast (s ) and leave the ground floor c/breast ( s ) in - situ.

 

[stuartturbo]

I would check gallows brackets as the councils that allow them are getting less and less.
Mine seems to be the same as yours but mid terrace
I currently have est two 8x4" timbers on the wall's with a est 5mm steel plate, this is under each "split" off the stack, upside down Y.
I have had all stacks removed from below loft.

Now getting a loft conversion and getting rid of the rest off the stack to the roof line, the last bit will be supported on a flitch beam not sure of the size of the top my head


I paid a builder to do mine after helping someone do their. mainly due to time constraints. once the stack is supported it is just a messy job with lots of skip. i seem to remember at minimum of 5 big one

 

[Static]

Councils are less likely to approve a gallows bracket on a terrace house due to past problems of failures.. go for a proper beam support in preference..

 

[macadonald]

Tim,

As you say all councils are diferent. Merton in London and many other London councils seems more than happy with gallows brackets (of the right spec) to be placed in the loft. They specified resin set bolts so as not to blow the brick with rawl bolts. I ended up using resin set on the top and bottom hole of each bracket and rawl on the centre due to them being in the mortar bed. Either way building control signed it off.

As you said Tim, there are no doubt lots of methods out there, but was just explaining my experiences. Other have suggested full length supporting beam, but this makes it much less of a DIY job in my eyes. I managed to even avoid skips and lugged all the bricks to the dump in my golf (not recomended if you treasure your motor though

I'm still confused how you can keep a downstairs fireplace and remove the upstairs breast on the same side of the house. Certainly in my case, I had a single breast running from bottom to top that shared 2 flues: the downstairs fireplace and the upstairs fireplace. If I removed the upstairs I no longer have a flue for downstairs. I may have a diferent layout to most, but it is a standard london terraced house.

 

[tim00]

macadonald,

all councils, to my knowledge and that i've researched, approve of gallows brackets in the appropriate circumstances on site ie. in most instances. Beams and lintels are used far less than g/b's.

Again, it's universal practice to use rawl bolts. Perhaps you could point me to a council web page that requires "resin" fixings?

You seem quite certain that "you cannot remove upstairs and keep downstairs breasts" - that is wrong. You can remove any part of the chimney so long as it meets Bldg. Regs approval. Just because a fire opening and/or flue is left in-situ doesn't mean that it can be used - Bldg. Regs again. Flats and apartments are a different issue.





Structural Engineers are not immediately necessary, only in certain circumstances do councils req.that you call for a SE's view and calcs.

You say that you were "just explaining my experiences" but you made the post in a most definitive way - perhaps one should be cautious where structural advice is being offered.

to the "stuarts"

what evidence do you have that councils are not approving gallows brackets in terraced or any other kind of housing? Since when? Bldg. Regs are Bldg. Regs. If variations become widespread then the Regs are changed.

 

[Static]

http://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/ind.../information-guide/chimney-breast-removal.htm
http://www.tendringdc.gov.uk/NR/rdo...7-97D4-240DD0F16741/12093/Chimneyremoval2.pdf
http://www.richmond.gov.uk/home/env...tack_removal_and_the_building_regulations.htm

The above are just three examples of restrictions on the use of gallows brackets imposed by local councils.. they are only suitable in some instances.. not all..

Alot of the reservations of gallows brackets is when the wall in question is only single skin thick and/or you have back to back chimneys in terrace or semi houses..

 

[Maxsys]

When i did mine, in the same type of property, i removed the whole lot top to bottom, and redid the roof accordingly. Nothing to support, so no gallows, beams or anything else.

 

[macadonald]

Tim,

You seem to have misunderstood my post. I wouldn't necessarily consider it advise as much as my experience. The 'Stuarts' asked whether anyone would recommend taking on the job themseleves or getting someone in to do it. As I had just done mine myself, I was just sharing my project experience.

Re the use of resin/chemical fixings, my first google result was this:

http://www.haringey.gov.uk/chimney_breast_removal.pdf

I know it's not Merton, but Merton told me the same thing. Obviously my chimney breast and house layout mmeant that I could use Gallows, which might not be the case for everyone.

You asked me "what evidence do you have that councils are not approving gallows brackets in terraced or any other kind of housing? Since when? Bldg. Regs are Bldg. Regs. If variations become widespread then the Regs are changed."

I never said that councils were not approving the use of gallows brackets. Quite the contrary - I said that under the right circumstance they were.

Still baffled (but no doubt my lack of proffesional experience), how you can keep a working ground floor fireplace when it no longer has a flue on the 1st floor. There is no where for the smoke to go.

Apologise if I did make the post in a 'most definate way', once again take it as you will, but those were my experiences when removing my chimney breast and building control approved it, so it seemed like decent advice.

 

[tim00]

macadonald,
thank you for the ref. to Haringay council - i stand corrected ref the resin fixings, and that their first port of call when using a beam is for a SE. Both are firsts for me.
As for the rest, please read my posts for what they say, and to whom they are addressed.

 

[stuartturbo]

My issue was the lack of chimney left and then the size of the stack width wise as this is why mine is currently on beams
assuming 9" wall only aloud a 12" chimney mine measures more

Councils do approve of them but when i spoke to local and my SE they prefer beams

Please Note that Gallows brackets cannot be used if;
1. The Wall to which they are to be fixed is less than 225mm thick, or
2. The projection of the breast is more than 340mm (more than 150% of the thickness of
the supporting wall), or
3. The adjacent neighbours chimney breasts have already been removed or partially
removed and gallows brackets installed, or
4. The Brickwork or Mortar beds of the supporting walling are in poor condition.
5. The chimney breast is located on an external flank wall and no external projection exists