Confused over what certificates I should be getting...

[samuri]

Hi,

We have recently had some electrical work done in our house and I’m concerned that I may not be getting the right certificates for the work and that the work isn’t going to be registered with the LABC.

The work we have done is:
- Lighting circuit re-wired to provide earth to all fittings and switches (originally it had no earth circuit being 1960's house).
- Immersion heater was put on its own dedicated circuit with new MCB (originally was on another circuit)
- Additional sockets added to power circuit
- Original single sockets changed to doubles
- Original 'ring' circuit (one power circuit for the whole house) split up into three separate circuits. 1x Kitchen Ring, 2x Radials. 2 new MCBs installed.

Now the work has been completed but was told on testing there was a problem with the power circuit. Apparently it was coming up with a problem on the 'Loop Test'. I informed him that this problem had been raised before on a previous cert but that was put down as further investigation needed. I told him about this on the initial enquiry.

Then when I asked about the certs he said he could do one for the lighting but we didn’t need one for the sockets as he had 'only added a few sockets'. Then mentioned I should maybe look at a PIR to try and diagnose the problem. He also suggested that the cert form previous work should be ok to use.

Now my questions:
1) What certificates should I expect from this work (MWC/EIC)?
2) Is the work notafiable, as new circuits have been added to the CU?
3) If so is it his responsibility to notify the LABC?
4) Considering the loop fault was already present shouldn’t he have try to indentify the cause before changing/adding to that circuit?


Now when I employed him it was on the basis of the work being certified which he confirmed in his estimate as all work to 17th edition regs with certification. However in my naivety I assumed all electricians were qualified to fully certify work but since investigating I have found terms like 'Competent Person' and 'Part P' certified so I am unsure of his credentials on this.

I would like to know what I should be expecting on this and having a bit more knowledge on the subject before going to back and having a talk about it as would rather get him to certify it properly (assuming he is capable of doing so) rather than having to take it further.

TIA

 

[MalcofArabia]

1. Lighting circuit re-wired to provide earth to all fittings and switches (originally it had no earth circuit being 1960's house). EIC

- Immersion heater was put on its own dedicated circuit with new MCB (originally was on another circuit) EIC

- Additional sockets added to power circuit MEIWC

- Original single sockets changed to doubles MEIWC but in all honesty could not need to do any

- Original 'ring' circuit (one power circuit for the whole house) split up into three separate circuits. 1x Kitchen Ring, 2x Radials. 2 new MCBs installed. EIC

To be honest I would cover the whole lot on a single EIC

2, Yes the new circuits ie the lights and the immersion is notifiable.
Additional sockets may not be if not in a Part P designated special
location.
Original sockets change to double no but as your notifying the other I
would
The reconfiguration of the rings yes notify especially as one is in the
kitchen

3 If he is a scheme member then he can do the work and then self certify
If he isn't then it is your responsibility to notify the LABC before the
work started

4 Yes he should have done

 

[riveralt]

Now the work has been completed but was told on testing there was a problem with the power circuit. Apparently it was coming up with a problem on the 'Loop Test'. I informed him that this problem had been raised before on a previous cert but that was put down as further investigation needed. I told him about this on the initial enquiry.

Then when I asked about the certs he said he could do one for the lighting but we didn’t need one for the sockets as he had 'only added a few sockets'. Then mentioned I should maybe look at a PIR to try and diagnose the problem. He also suggested that the cert form previous work should be ok to use.

This sounds like an unregistered cowboy to me - trying to talk you out of 'expecting' a certificate for the work he has done.
If he was a member of a competent persons scheme then he should have given you an Electrical installation certificate, a schedule of inspections and a schedule of test resulsts. You should also receive either a certificate of completion from your Local Authority Building Control or same from the Competent scheme he is a member of.

Now when I employed him it was on the basis of the work being certified which he confirmed in his estimate as all work to 17th edition regs with certification. However in my naivety I assumed all electricians were qualified to fully certify work but since investigating I have found terms like 'Competent Person' and 'Part P' certified so I am unsure of his credentials on this.

I would like to know what I should be expecting on this and having a bit more knowledge on the subject before going to back and having a talk about it as would rather get him to certify it properly (assuming he is capable of doing so) rather than having to take it further.

TIA

Ask him for the name of the competent persons scheme he is a member of and his registration number.
This work requires notification under Part P - ask him how he will achieve this? He may be sufficiently qualified that the LA BC will accept the certificate from him - but do you really think he is?
If he isn't a member of such a scheme then you may be limited to speaking to your Local trading standards officer or solicitor.
Without an EIC etc and a proper Part P completion document you may have problems if and when you come to sell your house.
Furthermore, since the work he has done is completed then any electrician you ask to certifiy the work will only be able to issue a Periodic Inspection Report.
Finally, if he is skimping on the certification what else do you think he skimping over?

 

[samuri]

Thank you both for your responses.

I think it really has confirmed my fears. I have just spent the last hour reading through Part P to better understand how it works, and definately wish I had know about, and read it before I had chosen an electrician.

The one saving grace is I have yet to pay for the work so may be able to salvage something form this without costing to much more money.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If he is a scheme member then he can do the work and then self certify
If he isn't then it is your responsibility to notify the LABC before the
work started

No - if he isn't registered it was his responsibility to notify.

See this: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/regulation/12/made - it clearly talks about the person carrying out the work, and in this case that was the electrician.

 

[sparkticus]

See if your "electrician" is registered here


www.competentperson.co.uk

Now sometimes, if they have not done notifiable work for a while or ar no longer registered they will not appear on the list.

Frankly this person sounds like a chancer and a cowboy but I hold that thought until you check him out.

Do not pay him until you get the right certificate and until you know the building control notification has been filed by his self certification scheme!

 

[sparkticus]

Also, do not worry about researching part P. That is simply the electrical component of the building regulations.

What you need to know/do is:

1) Is he registered with a competent person scheme? (NICEIC - ELECSA NAPIT - BRE) there are one or two more but I can't think of them at the moment.
2) www.competentperson.co.uk will most likely list him if he is registered with one of the above schemes. If listed you will be able to see what scheme he is with.
3) If he is not registered then ask him if he contacted LABC to notify the work and assume he is paying the inspection fee since he did not quote for it.
4) Any clue of registration on his quote?

 

[samuri]

Well he doesn't appear to be on the competant person list.

He is coming over tonight as last night the upstairs light stopped working which appers to be a loose connection on the MCB (gently pushing it caused the light to flash on). This has obviously made me doubt even further the quality of the work and if he has even tested the system at all!

I will put it all to him to see what he says, and how he intends to get the notification (if he even does intend to).

No clue from the quote, it just stated it will be to 17th Ed. Regulations together with certificates.

The saga continoues...

 

[sparkticus]

Well he doesn't appear to be on the competant person list.

He is coming over tonight as last night the upstairs light stopped working which appers to be a loose connection on the MCB (gently pushing it caused the light to flash on). This has obviously made me doubt even further the quality of the work and if he has even tested the system at all!

I will put it all to him to see what he says, and how he intends to get the notification (if he even does intend to).

No clue from the quote, it just stated it will be to 17th Ed. Regulations together with certificates.

The saga continoues...

Thanks for the update. Either he is registered to self certify (and can prove that) or he should have contacted LABC and quoted you for the inspection fee/planned to absorb the inspection fee. There is no other way it could be done and he knows that.

In terms of registration, remember, you are not looking for qualifications, you are looking for his registration with one of the self certification schemes (NICEIC - ELECSA - NAPIT - BRE) He will have a registration number and you will be able to check that with his scheme provider either on line or via telephone call. If he does not show any clue on his quote then my bet is that he is not registered. That is fine as long as he contacted LABC and discussed the inspection fee with you. Please don't let him off the hook. There are too many cowboys doing this tuff and getting away with it.
Thanks again for the update. Please keep us informed.

 

[sparkybird]

Sorry to hear about your woes. But just another thing to check is the age of your fuse board.

The new sockets definitely need RCD protection and I would have also made sure any other circuits I worked on had this too. If the board is old this might have required a fuse board upgrade. If more modern then possibly fitting rcbo's to lighting and/or socket circuits. Either way, all require an EIC.

Let us know if your board has an RCD - even better if you can post a pic!

Best of luck

SB