Confusing Response to Party Wall Notice

[RossR]

Hi,

My wife and I are building an extension to our semi. We have planning permission and building regs approval. As the new foundations will be about 2 meters from our neighbours property, we sent them a party wall notice a week ago. This was based on the standard letters at the end of the government advice leaflet. We also asked in the notice if we could start the work earlier than 1 month. We didn't say anything about who we would appoint as surveyor. We got a response today which reads:

Dear (Got my name wrong, and only addressed it to me, not my wife)

Thank you for your letter dated 12th January. I would like you to start construction, on 12th February, as outlined in the council application. I have appointed chartered civil engineer XXXX to look after my interests. Could we arrange a meeting just before commencement of the contract on Fri 11th February between my engineer and your builder to discuss a number of points of mutual interest.

Regards,

XXXXX

I'm really confused. Obviously the neighbour does not agree to an earlier start date - we can cope with that. Does the phrase "I would like you to start construction" count as agreement? Does this look like a set up? Why wait until the day before work is going to begin to have this meeting? Am I right that a PWS looks after the interest of the property, not any people?

Our relationship with the neighbour is neither good nor bad, as we haven't owned the property long. I think their main concern is nothing to do with foundations - it is noise. We spoke to them when we delivered the notice and they moaned about the noise from another recently completed extension two doors away from them.

Any advice would be very much appreciated,

Ross

 

[jeds]

Well, they have dissented and appointed the engineer to act as adjoining surveyor under the act. Which they are entitled to do. The correct procedure now is for you to appoint your own surveyor who will take things from there.

Your surveyor will probably have an initial conversation with the adjoining surveyor and swap appointment letters and contact details etc. but really the next phase is to prepare a draft award and arrange a condition survey. Once the award is signed it will stipulate when you can start work. In theory the adjoining owner can't influence that date but in practice it may be best to keep on their good side.

 

[RossR]

In that case I would expect them to ask who I'm appointing, not arrange a meeting with my builder. Even if the adjoining owner doesn't understand the process, the engineer should advice them, no?

 

[vv2806]

In my imho, it would be more neighborly to knock on their door and politely ask what their concern is and what issues they would like to discuss with your surveyor/builder. Perhaps it would give you more information that all the speculations we can do here in the forum.

 

[RossR]

I think that will be me first action, yes. We'll seek verbal clarification.

 

[^woody^]

Be sure the PWA actually applies - ie are the new foundations to be lower than the neighbours.

Start dates and special working arrangements (including work times) can be part of the award

 

[Terry7556]

the act applies because the work is within 3 metres of the neighbours property

 

[^woody^]

The act only applies if new foundations are within 3m AND deeper than the neighbours foundations

 

[RossR]

There are two uncertainties about weather the act applies. As woody points out - the act only applies if the excavations are deeper than the neighbours foundations. The depth of the neighbours foundations won't be known until we've started excavating (It's a 1960s, two story house). The depth of our foundations is subject to the whim of building control. This must be a common situation though?

 

[^woody^]

The way a wise designer would play this would be to notionally assume that the neighbouring foundations are at a typical depth of say 750mm-1000mm, and then design the new foundations to a similarly typical depth.

Although you are correct in that there may be certain circumstances when deeper foundations may be required, for the purpose of the PWA, the designed foundations will not be deeper than the neighbouring foundations, and therefore the PWA will not apply.

Your designer has probably just cost you a load of grief and money

 

[RossR]

Our foundations are designed to be 900mm deep. They aren't anything special - a standard design. I would have thought the trend over the years would be for foundations to get deeper, so assumed that the neighbours would likely be less.

 

[jeds]

Strictly speaking you should serve notice, which you obviously have done. But in practice it is very common to assume your foundation will not be deeper and to proceed without notice. When you excavate, if you find your foundation going deeper than the adjoining, then you could serve notice at that point. Once excavated though it's sensible to get it poured because the longer foundations are left open the more likely it is to cause problems.

Oh, and once the foundation is in party wall notices are irrelevant because the Act cannot be applied retrospectively. It says so in the Act.

As a caveat; this all usually works quite well providing you are marginally deeper. If your foundation goes considerably deeper then you should stop and think again.

 

[Terry7556]

ross i stand corrected by woody about the depth of foundations and whether or not they apply.
he is also 100% correct that this act and or your surveyor will cause you grief and money
i went through this 2 years ago with my extension and the PWA cost me £750, which was the cheaper end of my quotes, one was £1350 and when you consider that the cost of possibly paying for your neighbours engineer as well, i could have paid out £2600.i do not feel it was value for money
a man or 2 men will look at your proposed job and with the building surveyor they will all agree that you probably need to dig deeper, they will not reduce the depth of your footings ( your builder will shake his head and mutter something like york cathedral does,nt have footings that deep and its still standing)
if i carry out another extension i will do my utmost to avoid this act because it i am not trying to cut any corners in the way the work is carried out
just try to behave to your neighbours like you would want them to treat you and your property, talk to them regularly and you should end up with your relationship intact and no disputes on record
i hope it all goes well for you

 

[RossR]

Update:

We managed to talk to them last night. They are not dissenting. The engineer is a friend of the family, who is involved in the construction industry. He's already seen the plans and doesn't see any problems. He'd just like to discuss a couple of things with our builders, informally. The reason for the timing is that the engineer is away on holiday.

Thanks for the advice guys. Touch wood, we won't be wasting thousands on party wall surveyors.