CU replacement with a cheeky rewire chucked in..

[andilad]

OK, for starters I know I am going to get a bit of flame for this.. it's not a job for a DIY, it is BC notifiable and need a Part P certificate on the end results...

So, all this said, I want some advice on Doing it Myself... flame flame flame..

If you have got this far and would like to help.. here is my plan.. please advise if any of this will cause my imminent death.

There is an existing wired fuse CU... which needs replacement and there are minimal sockets.. so I am shutting the power off at the CU.. then chasing walls...

Putting in a small (less than 50m) ring main for sockets in the rooms except the kitchen.
Another ring main for sockets in the kitchen.
Replace the lighting circuit..

At this point all not connected...

Then remove all old wiring so the old CU is empty.

Then continuity check the wiring, doing the earth bonding etc..

Then connect them a circuit at the time to the existing fused CU... I am thinking this will highlight any wiring problems at this nice early stage..

If the circuits all test out ok on the old CU.. I then approach changing the CU.

Now.. I haven't got an isolated supply.. the supplier is less than keen to come and do anything.. I have discussed with them (Ecotricity who don't really exist outside their office) and they said an electrician would be able to swap the supply.

So this sounds like they are non-officially removing the main fuse on the supply phase.

Ok so I do this, obviously carefully - not touching the hot contact.. covering and keeping small children's fingers away...

Then swap the supply from the old CU to the new CU

This is where I want to avoid a firework display ahead of Guy Fawkes. So I am thinking connect the supply to the new CU, but not bring in any of the ring mains.. leave it be... put the 100A back in the main fuse, and put back the seal which I would not have illegally broken.

If this is all good, then move one circuit onto the new CU, one at a time, until it is all up and lovely.

So.. is this a good plan? Any place I fall down.

I am not a noddy DIY, I have done this sort of thing before... from the CU forward.. the new ground for me is swapping the supply to the CU..

Any non judgmental advice gratefully received.
Thanks
Andy

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[Chri5]

Not once have you made reference to testing.

Not once have you made reference to IEE 17th: 2008.

Not once have you mentioned notification and the requirements of your LABC to carry out inspection during works.


As for your comment that the old CU will provide a testing point for the new circuits before you then upgrade to a new type CU, well that's really funny.

How's that going to show you leaky circuits that will pop an RCD or RCBO ?


Unlike some I have absolutely no issue with joe public attempting skilled, professional work. I love it, since about 25% of my yearly income comes from this fraction of the populous.
Not only will I get emergency call out and prime rates for remedial I get near cart blanch to charge what I like, since 'other' sparks tend to steer clear of the problems guys like you can cause yourself.

Now what happens in 3 years time when you decide to sell and there's no paperwork for the job?

What happens to your building and contents cover when either a fire causes damage or a serious 3rd party injury happens due to sub standard, uncertificated, non part P and unnotified work is discovered?

By all means carry on, but I won't supply you with a metaphorical shot gun to allow you to carry on the suicidal path your taking.

However should you decide to do the works per the regs, notify the LABC and are prepared to buy test equipment then I'd be 'ok' with offering you some guidance.

 

[oharaf]

Andilad, firstly a full re-wire does require notification and certification.

Putting this aside as clearly you intend to go ahead any way........

You will need to correctly select, erect and install all your new fixings and cabling in accordance with BS7671:2008

(Do you have a copy?)

I would tackle the task in this order.

1. Carryout ALL chasing work

2. Fit back boxes etc

3. Draw in lighting circuits connect up

4. Draw in Ring Finals connect up

5. Draw in any remaining circuits connect up

6. Up grade MEB if required

7. Assemble CU

8. Mount CU

9. Draw cables into New CU

10. Connect New Tails to CU & MEB

11. Prepare 'legs' of each circuit for installation

12. Test each circuit for continuity and polarity then connect to CU
doing ring final last

13. Test all circuits for Insulation Resistance re-test polarity
doing ring final last

13a connect to incomer!!!!!

14. Energise

15. Test Ze, Zs, PFC/PSC, RCD, Functional test


to do all of these tests you will need the appropriate test instruments and BS7671:2008 to ensure compliance

16. Remove as much old wiring and all fittings


This is a massive under taking and you will need to let LABC know you are doing it, they will then charge you to come out and inspect and test your work

 

[sm1thson]

Theres a lot more to puling the fuse than not touching it, they are known to fall apart, theres been some good threads on it before.

do the bonding first. you can do that now on your old board and its not BC notifiable.

BC notifying is more of a pain on small DIY jobs, as it means the notifying cost a lot more than the job, with a CU rewire its well worth the money to notify.

 

[andilad]

Not once have you made reference to testing.

Not once have you made reference to IEE 17th: 2008.

Not once have you mentioned notification and the requirements of your LABC to carry out inspection during works.

However should you decide to do the works per the regs, notify the LABC and are prepared to buy test equipment then I'd be 'ok' with offering you some guidance.

IEE 17th, I kind of covered with "Part P certificate on the end results... " I would have to do the work to the current standards to get the cert - right

LABC: I covered with "it is BC notifiable"

With regard to test equipment, a recommendation would be good... was thinking a continuity tester.. but if there are extra options.. would be cool to know

 

[andilad]

Thanks oharaf that gave me a starter for ten... well 16 actually

 

[TopTrumper]

andilad
it sounds like a plan to me.......

 

[RF Lighting]

I just can't understand what on earth you thing you are going to achieve by messing about with your old fuse box.

If anything, this is more dangerous than just connecting straight to your new CU.

As for testers, you will need ALL of the following instruments as a minimum, a knowledge of how to safely use them (as some involve live testing), and an understanding of how to interpret the results:

Continuity tester with a resolution of 0.01 ohms
Insulation resistance tester
Earth fault loop impedance tester
RCD tester

 

[TopTrumper]

I just can't understand what on earth you thing you are going to achieve by messing about with your old fuse box.

If anything, this is more dangerous than just connecting straight to your new CU.

As for testers, you will need ALL of the following instruments as a minimum, a knowledge of how to safely use them (as some involve live testing), and an understanding of how to interpret the results:

Continuity tester with a resolution of 0.01 ohms
Insulation resistance tester
Earth fault loop impedance tester
RCD tester

Do you really think he is going to test all this lot when he puts it in?
as you do know, he will be putting this in regardless of advice given here..
mate

 

[andilad]

Well, it's nice that the default human characteristic is cynicism. Yes, I am going to do it anyway.. but no.. I am not just going to plug and play...

I will get it tested, it will be building control notified - and signed off... but I am going to do the leg work.

After the very helpful post, regarding testing equipment, I have been researching.. it's the way I approach things.. I research things, read a lot.. and if I then judge something to be beyond my ability, I get a professional in. However if I understand what I am being told. I will go ahead and do it.

Some of these test tools are costly, which is a consideration. But one of the options open to me, is to get a professional in to do the testing before hook up... and I would be happy to pay for his skill & kit in this regard.

My main objective is do everything I am able to... which I think is fair enough - no?

 

[sparkybird]

You might want to find an electrician who is prepared to test and sign off your work before you start as registered electrician's are not supposed to sign off someone elses work and I for one certainly wouldn't.

SB

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I will get it tested, it will be building control notified - and signed off... but I am going to do the leg work.
.
.
But one of the options open to me, is to get a professional in to do the testing before hook up... and I would be happy to pay for his skill & kit in this regard.

That's not how it works.

If you notify, in advance, and pay the fee, then you will be into the minefield that is the variable way LABCs do (or not) what they should regarding inspection & testing of your work.

If you expect the electrician to certify compliance with the Building Regulations then you must find one who is happy for you to do some of the work. You must find him before you start, and you must do the work according to his instructions - nobody else's advice, not your own ideas etc.

Doing the bulk of the work and then expecting an electrician to test and certify is a bad plan.

 

[ericmark]

I have never tried to hire test equipment so mundane but I have hired an earth rod tester so I expect the rest can be hired! Assuming you can then can you use it? I remember first time I had an earth loop impedance tester and looked at the results and realised I hadn’t a clue as to what passed and what failed. And if it fails what then also got caught out on volt drop. And at this point I had been an industrial electrician for at least 20 years. So bit the bullet and took course and exam. When I started it had to look good and work no one was interested in ELI or PSC at electrician level that was for engineers.
So assuming you do it right and inform the LABC do you really think their inspector knows what to look for? Seems there are only two Local Authorities who have their own qualified tester.
So he looks at what you have done and decides to play safe and employs an out side firm that’s 3 weeks before phase 1 is passed and 3 weeks before phase 2 is passed if your lucky. So that’s at least 6 weeks without electricity.
Temporary supply you must be joking jobs worth for council is responsible for site safety he’s not going to allow that.
That is if he ever lets you start I had a fight on and I have 2391 and 2381 (now 2382) plus a degree in electrical and electronic engineering and I had to fight to get him to let me DIY on my dad’s house.
And this is if nothing goes wrong miss read and enter wrong figures and he will reject it and you will have another 3 weeks wait before you get the power back on.
Forget pulling fuses this man will go by the book and it will be disconnected by the supply authority not the billing agent and re-connected by supply authority when they feel like doing it and if your at work tough you wait another 3 weeks.
I’ve been there and done it and I would say you need to plan on no power for around 12 weeks I think they do it just to put people off. Theory and practice are very different. And be under no illusion breaking seals is an offence and what happens varies area to area with some areas taking not a blind bit of notice and others prosecuting every breach.
The only way you are likely to be able to DIY is if you find some electrician who is willing to take you on his books and employ you to work on your own house. Or go to collage and take city and guilds 2391 and 2382 and even then your in for a battle. So if you don’t believe me go to http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/Pp...gportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf and down load the document jump to page 23 and see if you think you could fill in those forms if not forget it.
Put yourself in the building inspectors place. If he allows you to proceed and you get it wrong he will find himself in court trying to explain why he allowed you to proceed would you want to take that chance or would you put every obstacle in the DIY’er way. Especially when they haven’t a clue if you are doing anything wrong or not.
On the other hand if you don’t declare what you are doing you have no insurance and no chance of selling the house so really between a rock and a hard place.
I wish I could give you a different story I hate Part P but facts and facts and like the Corgi have got a hold on all gas stuff (until next year) so the electrical clubs have now got their way.
Eric

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So he looks at what you have done and decides to play safe and employs an out side firm that’s 3 weeks before phase 1 is passed and 3 weeks before phase 2 is passed if your lucky. So that’s at least 6 weeks without electricity.

No - they are obliged to respond much quicker than that to being told that the work is at a stage where it's ready for inspection.

If they don't come in that time then you can carry on, and they can't refuse a completion certificate because they didn't turn up. (Builders often exploit this to get away with non-compliances by notifying when they know the BCO will be too busy to come in time).

The problem with electrical work is that if you are relying on them to check it for safety then you're stuffed.

But then if you're rewiring a house yourself you should not be relying on any third party to check safety - if you don't know that what you are doing is good, and aren't able to test and prove it yourself then a rewire is a job too far....

That is if he ever lets you start I had a fight on and I have 2391 and 2381 (now 2382) plus a degree in electrical and electronic engineering and I had to fight to get him to let me DIY on my dad’s house.

I'm not surprised, but if you stick to your guns then that is not a fight you can lose, as the law and all the guidance is crystal clear that DIYing is perfectly allowable.

And this is if nothing goes wrong miss read and enter wrong figures and he will reject it and you will have another 3 weeks wait before you get the power back on.

See above - if you don't know enough to see that a value you're about to enter cannot be right, or if it is right then there is something amiss, then rewiring a house is a job too far.

Forget pulling fuses this man will go by the book and it will be disconnected by the supply authority not the billing agent and re-connected by supply authority when they feel like doing it and if your at work tough you wait another 3 weeks.

The BCO does not work for the electricity supplier.

Contraventions of the ESQCR are not within the BCO's remit.

Part P does not apply to items on the supplier's side of the meter.

I’ve been there and done it and I would say you need to plan on no power for around 12 weeks I think they do it just to put people off.

I think you're saying that just to put people off

Theory and practice are very different. And be under no illusion breaking seals is an offence and what happens varies area to area with some areas taking not a blind bit of notice and others prosecuting every breach.

Can you provide any evidence, not "someone told me", of anybody, be they electrician or DIYer, being prosecuted for tampering with the fuse seal if
a) Nothing bad happened, and
b) They didn't do it to steal electricity
?

The only way you are likely to be able to DIY is if you find some electrician who is willing to take you on his books and employ you to work on your own house.

That's an exaggeration.

Or go to collage and take city and guilds 2391 and 2382 and even then your in for a battle. So if you don’t believe me go to http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/Pp...gportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADP_2006.pdf and down load the document jump to page 23 and see if you think you could fill in those forms if not forget it.

See above - if you can't fill the forms in properly then rewiring a house is a job too far. But you do not need 2391 & 2382 to be able to do that.

Put yourself in the building inspectors place. If he allows you to proceed and you get it wrong he will find himself in court trying to explain why he allowed you to proceed

There is no legal basis on which he can prevent you, so it's unlikely that he would end up in court.

What offence do you think he would be charged with?

would you want to take that chance or would you put every obstacle in the DIY’er way. Especially when they haven’t a clue if you are doing anything wrong or not.

The reason they make things awkward is to give themselves a quiet life and to avoid losing money having to sub out the I&T work, them having failed to skill up to meet their added responsibilities.

On the other hand if you don’t declare what you are doing you have no insurance

Are you sure about that?

and no chance of selling the house

That's a gross exaggeration.