Damp wall other side of tiled wall

[snomys]

Hi everyone

I had a new shower area fitted about a year ago, the shower is tiled mosaic on aqua panel and epoxy(water resistant) grout.

However, I noticed the wall paper peeling at the bottom of the wall that is on the other side of the shower wall.

_______
|
|
| shower
|
|_______
| ^
| ^
| (damp on other side of plaster board wall)
|
| hallway
|________
damp patch on other side

So I have peeled off all of the damp paper, and can see a plasterboard backing that has a few damp patches on it. I can only assume

a) The shower wall is allowing water through
b) Condensation may have gathered on this wall over time

So now I have turned on a dehumidifier and am ensuring any further showering etc the room is ventilated, so should this wall dry out I can put this down to condensation.

But supposing its not.

Whats the next step, it would mean the shower wall may need to be dismantled and the aqua panel and....

I dont even want to contemplate it, this shower area has been nothing but trouble from the start!!!!!!!

Any ideas, pointers, tests I can try, all welcome.

But most of all, worse case scenario what would be a fix for this.?


Thanks in advance.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Check the seals on the shower tray and around the shower enclosure are in good order.
Also that the grouting on the tiles is also.
This may be the reason why it is failing!
These can be repaired without major work being carried out.

 

[snomys]

I have checked throughly, there is no shower tray, the floor itself is tiled with mosaics and again grouted with epoxy. all tiles and grout on the floor and sides of the shower are perfect.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Well for the time being, I would clean down the damp area with diluted bleach solution then clean water to prevent mould sporing.
Keep an eye on it, especially at showering times and see how the extra ventilation and humidity extraction goes.

 

[snomys]

The shower is like a 3 sided cubicle, wet room type thing, the entrance is partially covered glass bricks 50%, and 50% so you can access in and out.

The other 3 sides are mosaic tiled. And so is the floor which has a central drainage point which runs out of the house.

Anyway:
So my plan is to dry the wall out, there was a small set of drawers pushed up against that wall, and the damp was found behind that.

I understand that if the wall is a cold wall or outer wall, you dont want anything near it as it can be a hotbed for mould etc.

When the wall has dried out, then I'll ensure ventilation is done every bath time, every shower time, and hopefully the wall will remain dry.

If it feels wet and damp thereafter, I think the shower area, grout, tiles whatever is failing.

Just one question, when you install aqua panel, and tile onto it, do you still requite a damp proof membrane?

And how is this constructed:

Membrane -> Aqua Panel -> Tiles

or

Aqua Panel -> Membrane -> Tiles

Im not sure the builders put a membrane or not...?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

In wet rooms and walk in showers. I would always recommend that the area was tanked up with DPM.
This can be sheeted membrane or one applied by brush. A few different products on the market.
I would contact the person who installed the shower, to confirm what they did on intallation.

 

[snomys]

OK thanks!

But suppose there is no membrane, and each shower taken water is permeating through.

What course of actions could I possibly take?

Either shower side?

Or, hallway wall side?

 

[OJJ]

When constructing a wetroom a fall should be created to direct water towards the drain, this can be achieved with formers and screed on a concrete floor or by using a preformed wet floor base suitable for suspended floors. Suspended floors will normally require strengthening between the joists in the shower area. The walls surrounding the shower area, if they are of a stud construction, should be clad with either marine grade ply or preferably water resistant panelling designed specifically for showers. Solid brick or block walls are suitable as long as the plaster or render are sound. Once the area has been constructed and the drainage completed the whole area should be tanked with a suitable sheet or paintable membrane. The damp proof membrane should be applied to the floor and walls in the shower area and to the rest of the floor in the bathroom, some kits recommend that the DPM is applied to a height of 100mm up the remaining walls creating a large tank. Often preformed rubber joints designed are supplied with wetroom kits that are fitted to the joint between the shower base and the walls, a common week area. Further rubber joints are often supplied for the area around pipes feeding the shower valve. It does sound as though water may be leaking between the floor and wall, although with capillary action the water could be coming from else ware in the shower or from the pipe work. Personally I would be surprised if the damp patches are caused by condensation.

 

[snomys]

OK, you know your stuff and I think you are spot on, with water containment you need to use everything at your disposal, so in my case, I should have hoped the builder used aqua panel, membrane, epoxy grout and adhesive!

But I suspect they didnt use the membrane, just my hunch.

So should that wall remain damp what can I do, aside of hacking all of the tiles from the 3 walls of the shower enclosure.

Also, does the membrane go under the aqua panel or on top of it?

 

[OJJ]

The Aqua panel I am familiar with is a mesh reinforced concrete board used specifically for construction in areas which will be exposed to high levels of moisture. My understanding of this type of product is that it will not become damaged should it be exposed to moisture and it provides a strong base on which to apply tiles. In a normal shower the tiles would be applied straight to the Aqua board or the wall and extend down to the shower tray, the tiles and grout create the water proof surface together with silicone sealant. When creating a wetroom the shower tray is replaced by the floor former or screed, the tanking element is applied last and connects the floor to the walls creating a sort of bucket. When the tiles are applied they create a further decorative water proof barrier, although I would personally always apply silicone sealant to any joints where walls intersect with floors and each other to safeguard against any settlement or movement which is perfectly normal. The job of the tanking is to ensure that any water which may get past the grout, for whatever reason, cannot soak into the floor and certainly within the shower area drain back into the shower drain its self. There may be number of reasons for your damp patches and obviously the object is to identify and cure the problem with as little possible damage. My first course of action would be to contact the builder, he may have constructed the area correctly and understand what the problem may be (materials or perhaps a leaking pipe). If the leak is from the shower base you may want to check for cracks in the grout normally where the floor meets the walls although I hope there may be sealant here, if there is sealant present check that it has not pulled away from the floor (your weight may cause the floor to depress slightly, very common). Rather than have to pull tiles off the wall at this stage I would cut a small hole in the wall where the damp has appeared (assuming it is stud wall) and investigate from behind as it will be cheaper to repair. If the problem is grout or sealant related do not just reapply more until it has been removed and the area has been left to dry for a few days. Talk to the builder and possibly contact one of the specialist wetroom companies for advice if it appears you have a more serious issue. Apologies for the essay and good luck.

 

[snomys]

Thank you very much for your time and efficient understanding of the problem.

I have contacted the builder, although he guaranteed his work 2 years, he seems very reluctant in replying to me, but I will continue to pursue him.

The floor of the shower is not a tray.

In fact, the floor is a concrete base, which has slight falls to the drainage hole in the centre. The floor is tiled with mosaic and again epoxy grout/adhesive.

The edge where the wall joins the floor is lined with silicone, and seems to be in tact, good coverage and well applied.

The dampness on the hallway wall seems to be from the base of the shower downwards when checking the other side, not much higher than that. try to imagine the floor being a 30cm concrete step above the normal level of the bathroom floor.

I would hazard a guess that water is seeping through into the underneath of the concrete step and that has caused the problem. I doubt the builder put aqua panel on the floor.

In fact, Im fairly certain he didnt use any membrane.

Last night I left the dehumidifier pointing towards the wall and this morning it felt a little greasy, but fairly dry. I told my girlfriend to ventilate when showering and ensure the bathroom fan is switched on, its not humidistat'ed extractor fan in there, just comes on when light is on.

Should the wall dampen up again, I will hack into it from the hallway side and as you say that should uncover a bit more information.

I expect worse case scenario that 1.5 metres(from the floor upwards) of tile may need to be removed in the shower enclosure, then a waterproof membrane applied to the wall and floor, then re-tiled.

Im just worried that the tiles will not be flush with the tiles above the 1.5m line.

I think first move, it to watch.
If the wall dampens up again, then apply more silicone around the floor/wall edge.
Then see how that goes...

Better to try minor fixes before a big one comes in...

Anyway, thanks so much for your help...

 

[OJJ]

Glad the information is of use to you, sorry to hear that the builder is unresponsive. Do you have a shower door on the front of the wet area? This may be causing your problem and not the wet area its self. A simple mistake when installing your shower door can cause the damp you describe and can be easily fixed. I am not an expert on wetrooms as such, my background is in shower design and development for large manufacturers, recently with specialist frameless glass applications which are invarably fitted in wetrooms.

 

[snomys]

My shower is basically layed out as below, there is no door or shower tray:

___________________
|------------O-----------X
|-------------------------X
|-------------------------X
|-------------------------X
|-------------------------X
|--------------------------
|--------------------------
|--------------------------
|--------------------------
|__________________



So the 0 represents the shower head. The top, left, bottom are walls, aqul panelled with mosaic tiles.

The right side X'x represent a partial screen of glass blocks, under neath the X's is the opening to step in and out of the shower. The damp can be found on the other side of the bottom wall.

 

[OJJ]

If I have understood your layout correctly then the damp is close to where you access the shower area. How much water escapes from the shower area onto the floor outside the shower (through the access point)? You suggest that the shower base is raised up. Reflected spray from your body when showering will often escape when only a partial screen is used. The shower area may well be doing its job but water escaping during showering and then collecting on the floor where it meets the tray and wall may well be seeping through a crack in the grout or by some other means. This is also a common problem when a shower area is not fully enclosed. I am not suggesting that the wet area should not be investigated but you would be wise to investigate before you start to dismantle the shower.

In answer to your question, if the tiles are still available and you can remove them from the wall without too much damage then a good tiler should be able to match the tiling. The issue will be that the membrane needs to be applied to a flat surface which is in good condidtion. The aqua panel would not normally be applied to the floor, that would be formed in concrete or by a preformed base.

Ask your partner to stand in the shower, examin the sealant from floor level. You are looking for any gaps which appear under the sealant. Often the sealant looks intact but has actually pulled away from the floor. Only apply more sealant when you have removed all the old sealant and allowed the area to dry for atleast a week. When the new silicone is applied put some weight in the base so that it compresses and allow the sealant to dry for a minimum of 24 hours before using the shower, longer if you can. You may also want to check around the drain, water may be leaking from the grout around the grate although if the floor has been formed correctly it should not reach the walls.

 

[snomys]

Sure, the floor is concrete. it does not move no matter how much weight it put on it. So a human in the shower wont cause any movement on the sealant for wall to floor fixing.

I think as the base is concrete, perhaps the water is permeating through the grout and tiles and soaking into the concrete. Theres no membrane on the floor.

The step lip for the entrance to the shower area, is a big rubber step lip, this is fixed down very sturdily and covers the lip of the step into the shower. Its all fairly sealed up around there, and the face of the step itself it one bug giant black tile, so even if water runs down there it doesnt gather on the floor, as we put a towel there every shower and it barely gets wet at all.

Ill monitor the dry wall now, if it wets up again, then Ill go ahead and remove old sealant and then put a new layer.

If that again shows dampness returning, Ill call someone in and investigate further.

Ive written to the builder again and urged him to get in touch, lets hope he does just that.

Thanks alot.