Do fire rated spotlights still need hoods for insulation?

[andyandy1]

Ive had mixed answers to this.
If using fire rated spot light in the upstairs bedrooms, do they still require a smoke hood to keep the insulation quilt away from them?

I have seen various different designs to keep the insulalation away.
Hoods made out of like a webbing material, metal ones that cover the joists, metal circular ones that fit around the spots etc.

Ive also seen people post that they use teracotta pots, and you can even make your own by creating a timber housing, or just plasterboard to give the given clearance specified by the spotlights.

What is the most economical option? Make your own, buy something to use as a hood, or spend the £8-£15 ish each on a specific one made for the job? I will be needing something like 20+

thanks

 

[JohnD]

the cheapest way would be to make up your own plasterboard boxes. Plasterboard is quite easy to work with by scoring and snapping.

However this would only be acceptable if you have no need for recognised fire protection, for example betwen two homes, or possibly if regulations apply to a HMO or a conversion or 3-storey home.

 

[SimonH2]

You need to remember that fire rated does NOT mean "doesn't need air space round it" as many people will try and tell you.

"Fire rated" simply refers to the fitting being designed to maintain the fire resistance of the ceiling. Many fittings allow a large hole between the downstairs room and the space above which would allow fire to spread easily - fire rated fittings avoid this.
You still need to follow the manufacturer's instructions regarding the air space needed around the fitting.

 

[1028741]

Fire rated recessed spotlights usually have holes in the top of the metal enclosure to allow heat out. You can butt the insulation up to the edges of the light can in the ceiling, but can't put insulation over the top, as that would cover the holes and cause overheating

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Many fittings allow a large hole between the downstairs room and the space above which would allow fire to spread easily - fire rated fittings avoid this.

They avoid it once the fire is hot enough. The intumescent filling does not expand and block the passages through the light until the gases passing through are very hot. Smoke and/or poisonous fumes will have been getting through for quite a while before that happens.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ive had mixed answers to this.
If using fire rated spot light in the upstairs bedrooms, do they still require a smoke hood to keep the insulation quilt away from them?

They require something to keep the insulation away, and provide the clearance specified by the makers. The insulation needs to be reinstated over it, and it also needs to be sealed to the ceiling to stop warm moist air getting into the loft.

I will be needing something like 20+

Have you got a 20-bedroom house?

 

[andyandy1]

thanks for all replies.
as i thought, still needs something to stop the insulation.

ban-all-sheds - bedroom 1 (4 spots), ensuite 1 (2 spots), bedroom 2 (4 spots), ensuite 2 (2 spots), upstairs landing (6 spots), bedroom 3 (4 spots), main bathroom (4-6 spots), ensuite 3 (2-4 spots), other bedrooms might have spots in too but dont think so.

bathrooms on their own lighting circuit, separate from upstairs lighting circuit.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Ive had mixed answers to this.
If using fire rated spot light in the upstairs bedrooms, do they still require a smoke hood to keep the insulation quilt away from them?

Smoke hoods are NOT designed to keep insulation away from lights.
They are desgned to provide a fire-resistant barrier to non fire-rated down lights.

You need something like a Loft Cap
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/TLALC724.html

or a loft brace
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/JC94020.html

or a home-made device as outlined above.

There are even some downlights that allow you to put the insulation material directly over the top of the light (never tried them myself.)
http://www.downlightsdirect.co.uk/aurora-insulation-coverable-downlight-fixed.html

Whatever you do, make sure that you follow the makers instructions re clearances etc.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

bedroom 1 (4 spots), ensuite 1 (2 spots), bedroom 2 (4 spots), ensuite 2 (2 spots), upstairs landing (6 spots), bedroom 3 (4 spots), main bathroom (4-6 spots), ensuite 3 (2-4 spots),

28 - 32 lights for 8 rooms

Is this because

a) The rooms are extremely large?

Or

b) You're trying to light them with lights which aren't actually any good at lighting up rooms?

 

[CharlieB1981]

is there any guide as to how much space to leave around a ight and cables also.

i'm having a re wire done and insulating between the ground and first floor, my sparky's advised to leave 250mm around the lights (all fire rated) and 100mm around cables.

this has left rather large gaps in insulation!

 

[Taylortwocities]

Oh Charlie, I do hope that you aren't hijacking andyandy's topic

 

[andyandy1]

ive seen both items from TLC thanks for the links.
if it was only a few that were needed then id buy the covers as shown above, if its going to be quite a lot then it might be best to make my own covers as described above.

ban-all-sheds.
well id guess if i had to choose, i suppose it would be option b.
the spot lights are purely because they look nice, in my opinion.
2 spot lights in a bedroom wont look right or be bright enough.
so 4 spot lights in a square in each room (2+2), 2 spot lights in long thin ensuites, 6 spots in long landing (2 rows of 3), and then either 4 or 6 spot lights in bathroom depending on how it will look.

i will probably be using the low watt led type gu10 bulbs.

are you not a fan of spot lights? if so why not? is it because of the amount that people use?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

2 spot lights in a bedroom wont look right or be bright enough.

That's because they are not meant to be used for lighting up rooms. They are actually deliberately designed to be bad at that - they are called spotlights because they are meant for spot illumination.

so 4 spot lights in a square in each room (2+2), 2 spot lights in long thin ensuites, 6 spots in long landing (2 rows of 3), and then either 4 or 6 spot lights in bathroom depending on how it will look.

i will probably be using the low watt led type gu10 bulbs.

I hope you like wearing sunglasses in bed, or never looking up at the ceiling.

are you not a fan of spot lights?

Depends what they are used for.

If you use them because you need a small spot of light to illuminate a retail display item, or a particular feature then they are fine.

If you try to use them to do something they have been designed not to do, and have to overcome their inbuilt inability to light up more than a small amount of space by using lots of them then they are not fine.

 

[SimonH2]

i will probably be using the low watt led type gu10 bulbs.

Have you considered buying something designed for LEDs - rather than something designed for an incandescent bulb retrofitted with something designed to fit into an unsuitable space ?

Most LED replacement bulbs, if they are of any "quality", tend to be much bigger (longer) than the halogen bulb they are intended to replace. This is because of the requirement for significant heatsinking to try and keep the LED chips cool enough so they stand some semblance of a change of having a half decent life.

If you buy a good LED fitting from the start, then the whole unit is designed around the needs of the LED - so you get something that doesn't look bodged together.
As well as that, if you choose carefully, some of these LED units are room sealed (the Halers H2 is one of them). This means you don't need to worry about making a sealed box over the top of those going into the attic to prevent moist air from the room below getting through and rotting your timbers with condensation.
You do still need to give them air space to stay cool - it's an incorrect myth that LEDs don't get hot. They make less heat, but they are also less tolerant of it as the chippery needs to stay cool.

FWIW, I'm with BAS on this one, really rubbish at lighting a room. Ceiling pendant is fine, uplighters on the wall are fine, spotlights are great at allowing you to examine the floor and little else.
But, a friend of mine has fitted Halers H2 dimmable units in his bathroom and living room. They aren't as bad as I expected, but I still wouldn't copy him. He's 4 in a bathroom that's almost all white tiles and white suite - so reflects the light back to where it needs to be. The living room has 15 (4x4 less one where the vestibule is cut out of the corner) - and they are alright if turned right down and some other lights turned on