Domestic house rewire by non uk qualified electrician

[gbrown100]

As you will see from my other post my electrics are less than ideal in my house including a half melted 5amp fuse with something much thicker wrapped round it, I need to rewire (and new CU). I have contacted 3 separate companies now (from the yellow pages) and none of them have bothered to ring back (after several calls to each) - after 3 and a half weeks i'm getting pretty sick of this. A friend who is a qualified electrician in Holland has said he will do the work for me - after suitable reading of online and paper based materials on UK regs. I am happy for him to do this but need to know how much this part p legislation is going to affect me.

I called an electrician and explained that I would have a Dutch electrician do the work and asked if the company would certifiy the work afterwards. He said they would not but could do a "Periodic Inspection" on demand which will solve all my problems... So my question is "Will it solve all my problems?", or more specifically:-

1. Should I notify planning that I am going to have the house rewired?
2. Will having the periodic inspection mean I don't need any other kind of inspection?
3. I read on another post that the local council can come out and certify the work, is that true?
4. What else am I missing?

Basically, I am looking to do this as so far electricians seem so busy that they can't be bothered to even have the courtesy to phone back and obviously because this could save a lot of money (and help a friend out). If this means that it puts lives at risk, invalidates insurance or gets me slapped with a conviction / fine then I will not do it...

All suggestions are greatly appreciated.

 

[Big_Spark]

I would urge caution, not wishing to insult your friend, but the way they wire on the continent is fundermentally different from those used in the UK, further our electrical accessories are wholly different, as are our control gear, your friend will not have experience of this equipment and could run in to serious problems, especially when it comes to testing the installation...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I called an electrician and explained that I would have a Dutch electrician do the work and asked if the company would certifiy the work afterwards. He said they would not but could do a "Periodic Inspection" on demand which will solve all my problems... So my question is "Will it solve all my problems?",

Probably not as far as your LABC are concerned.

1. Should I notify planning that I am going to have the house rewired?

No - you have to notify Building Control, not Planning.

2. Will having the periodic inspection mean I don't need any other kind of inspection?

Largely down to the discretion of LABC, but it almost certainly won't mean that.

3. I read on another post that the local council can come out and certify the work, is that true?

Yes - you can notify them, pay their fee (and no extras) and they inspect and certify the work. Search for "LABC scams" here for useful info on the sorts of fast ones they might try to pull

4. What else am I missing?

The fact that your friend could wire, test, and certify your house to Dutch standards, but that's probably not much help...

If this means that it puts lives at risk,

No.

invalidates insurance

Read your small print.

or gets me slapped with a conviction / fine

No, not as long as you notify LABC in advance, and do what they ask (subject to them asking for things they are allowed to).

All suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Is your friend's English OK? He could register here and ask questions.

Unless he likes technical regs for their own sake, a copy of BS7671 would probably not help him much, but you could get him an OSG, and a copy of the Electrician's Guide (see //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=75416#75416 ) and point him at the online copy of that.

Maybe get him the Which? book - it'll be a bit noddy for him, but it'll help him grasp ring finals and loop-in lighting systems, if you want those.

I'll come on to FWL's more outlandish concerns in a minute, but I honestly think that if he is a qualified electrician he'll have no problems in adapting what he knows to a UK installation.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I would urge caution, not wishing to insult your friend, but the way they wire on the continent is fundermentally different from those used in the UK,

I submit that "fundamentally different" is a bit of an exaggeration. They don't have ring finals, or loop-in lighting systems, and some countries, possibly Holland, possibly the whole of mainland Europe, have radials running to each room to supply sockets and lighting. I think you're unfairly denigrating the abilities of a fellow professional to be able to install separate lighting and socket radials, or a radial serving more than one room.

The laws of physics still apply - whilst he may not be familiar with our cable sizes, he must understand voltage drop and derating calculations.

further our electrical accessories are wholly different

,
They look very different, but once he's learned to pay attention to polarity, an earthed socket is an earthed socket - they all have 3 terminals on the back. A light switch does on/off. If the Dutch use latching relays like the French for 2-way switching then this could be the biggest difference, but if not then a 2-way switch must work in pretty much the same way.

And so it goes on.

as are our control gear

,
Here are some photos of MCBs, RCDs and RCBOs from a Dutch website:

They look familiar to me...

your friend will not have experience of this equipment and could run in to serious problems, especially when it comes to testing the installation...

My test equipment has manuals written in English, German, French and Spanish. I think that the mechanics of testing are pretty similar Europe-wide.

 

[gbrown100]

His english is very good, as is pretty much every Dutch person I have ever met - puts us english to shame!

I have pointed him at the TLC-Direct guide, the ieee website and a book in Amazon.com. He has first hand experience of seeing what UK wiring is like as he helped me install a 500 point cat5 cabling system in my office and spent a fair time routing around our roofspace and trunking.
One big difference seems to be that they use stranded cables, he admits not knowing which type of cable to use would be a problem but this is something that can be found out pretty easily.

I'll do some checking on the LABC situation and i'll point my friend to the forums also - i'm sure these will help immensly!

Thanks

Graham

 

[plugwash]

conduit singles are always stranded you could wire a house here with them and have no problems regs wise if everything was terminated properlly

T&E is just cheaper and less hassle especailly if you don't care about ease of modifying the install afterwards.

 

[gbrown100]

I called the LABC for Wealden District Council who are responsible for my area. The first person I spoke to basically said "You must have a Part P registered person do the work, we will not come out and certify"

After I quoted the documents I found here she admitted that it was not her area of expertise and passed me through to another chap. His response was as follows:-

There are 3 ways of handling this:-

1. Get a part P certified company in to do the work. They will notify building control and will be able to self certify the work

2. Get BS7671 certified electrician in to do the work. They should also submit plans to the BC and they will also be allowed to certify the work as a competent person. (He did explain this wasn't normal but they allow it!)

3. Submit plans for rewire to BC myself (£60) and then have my friend from Holland do the work. Then get an outside BS certified or Part P certified electrician to certify the work for me.

In all cases once the certified paperwork is returned the BC will issue the certificate. They said they are unable to provide someone to certify the work as they have no-one qualified to do it right now. He said that this is the reason they are allowing BS certified people to sign / certify the work.

Overall a success!

 

[plugwash]

they are ****ing you arround

they cannot require you to pay any more than the standard building control fee or require you to get a british spark to check it out first.

 

[Big_Spark]

I submit that "fundamentally different" is a bit of an exaggeration. They don't have ring finals, or loop-in lighting systems, and some countries, possibly Holland, possibly the whole of mainland Europe, have radials running to each room to supply sockets and lighting. I think you're unfairly denigrating the abilities of a fellow professional to be able to install separate lighting and socket radials, or a radial serving more than one room.

BAS, I have worked in Europe, and many electricians, although extremely professional and capable have a great deal of problems understanding our systems of wiring, as they are Fundermentallu different. UK sparks have a slight, and it is only slight, advantage over our European counterparts, we use Radials, Rings and Loop in systems, so we can easily adapt these to suit a given situation, however in Europe they do not use Rings or loop in lighting circuits, and the concept of this is difficult for some, obviously not all, to understand.

Regarding control gear, I was not refering to MCB's and isolators as these are pretty standard throughout most of Western Europe now, I was referring to meters (they are different) and such things as timeclocks etc, which due to different systems of wiring are also different etc..perhaps I should have worded that line better in the earlier post.

Regarding testing, being able to read a manual and use the meter does not mean that he knows how to test an install;ation in compliance with the requirements of BS7671:2004 GN3. Most European sparks do not know how to test installations as they don't even have too, dedicated testers, often local authority employees or supply authority employees do this before the final connections are made to power up installations.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1. Get a part P certified company in to do the work. They will notify building control and will be able to self certify the work

Yup - that's OK

2. Get BS7671 certified electrician in to do the work. They should also submit plans to the BC and they will also be allowed to certify the work as a competent person. (He did explain this wasn't normal but they allow it!)

Yup - that's OK too - they have the discretion to allow that.

3. Submit plans for rewire to BC myself (£60) and then have my friend from Holland do the work. Then get an outside BS certified or Part P certified electrician to certify the work for me.

That bit is not OK - that's what their £60 is supposed to pay for.

You said you'd read this - and quoted it to them - did you not read the part that says

There have been reports that some local authorities are asking householders to have electrical installation work inspected, tested and certificated by someone other than the person carrying out the work. Section 33(2) of the Building Act 1984 (which would give power to local authorities to require persons carrying out building work to carry out such reasonable tests, at the person's expense, of or in connection with the work for the purpose of enabling local authorities to ascertain whether the work complies with the requirements of the Regulations) has not been commenced. This means in our opinion that local authorities do not have the power to require householders to retain an electrician to test and certificate the work in accordance with BS 7671. Local authorities which have adopted such a practice should discontinue it immediately.

They said they are unable to provide someone to certify the work as they have no-one qualified to do it right now.

The proposals for Part P were first issued for comment in May 2002, and the results of the consultation, with firm Part P proposals, in September 2002. Part P came into force in January 2005. They had 2 years and 3 months in which to acquire the ability to carry out their new responsibilities, and it's now nearly 3 years since they were told what the procedures would be.

What have they been doing all that time, and why should you be out of pocket because they haven't prepared?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS, I have worked in Europe, and many electricians, although extremely professional and capable have a great deal of problems understanding our systems of wiring, as they are Fundermentallu different. UK sparks have a slight, and it is only slight, advantage over our European counterparts, we use Radials, Rings and Loop in systems, so we can easily adapt these to suit a given situation, however in Europe they do not use Rings or loop in lighting circuits, and the concept of this is difficult for some, obviously not all, to understand.

Surely the corollary of us being only at a slight advantage is them being only at a slight disadvantage? I know you are basing your comments on experience, but frankly I would be very surprised if a competent electrician of any creed couldn't get the hang of loop-in lighting, even if he had to refer to a diagram when wiring it up.

As for ring finals, there's a case to be made for not installing those anyway...

Regarding control gear, I was not refering to MCB's and isolators as these are pretty standard throughout most of Western Europe now, I was referring to meters (they are different) and such things as timeclocks etc, which due to different systems of wiring are also different etc..perhaps I should have worded that line better in the earlier post.

OK, but timeclocks? - we don't know that there will be any, and as for meters, what more does he need to know than two cables (in familiar colours) come out and go to the CU?

Regarding testing, being able to read a manual and use the meter does not mean that he knows how to test an install;ation in compliance with the requirements of BS7671:2004 GN3.

True

Most European sparks do not know how to test installations as they don't even have too, dedicated testers, often local authority employees or supply authority employees do this before the final connections are made to power up installations.

OK. I guess what I meant was that testing a circuit for insulation resistance, or testing the trip times of an RCD, etc, are going to be the same wherever you are, but if Dutch electricians don't do that routinely, then...

Anyway - the LABC will be doing the testing, won't they...

 

[Big_Spark]

BAS, I take the points you were making and I see what you mean ..

LABC's do not do testing...

 

[ban-all-sheds]

LABC's do not do testing...

Sorry - I forgot to put the at the end....

 

[gbrown100]

So OK:

Local authorities which have adopted such a practice should discontinue it immediately.

They shouldn't ask me to get someone in. What's the alternative here? I know they don't have the facility to do it so what's next. Remember, I am potentially going to do something out of the norm here, I really don't want to get massively embroiled in a dispute with the local BC people. Of course, it depends how much it costs to get a certified person to sign it off...

As for ring finals, there's a case to be made for not installing those anyway...

To be honest, I am not sure what the difference between a ring and a ring final is. Someone was telling me that it's possible that rings may not be used in the future and that they may just start using radials everywhere with 4mm cable instead. I guess doing it this way would probably suit my electrician friend down to the ground - the only problem would be that the cables probably would'nt fit down the capping that is in the walls at the moment.[/quote]

 

[pdcelec]

the only problem would be that the cables probably would'nt fit down the capping that is in the walls at the moment.

[/quote]

I would change the word probably to definitely