Drillings into asbestos?

[brettjbuckley]

I want to put shelves up in my garage. It has asbestos wells (or so I believe). The garage and house got built in 1966.

Should I consider myself safe if wearing a mask?

 

[TexMex]

You could be right about the asbestos. Doubt anyone is going to suggest you drill into it. Could you perhaps build a shelving unit to stand in place. Alternatively perhaps sticking some 18mm Marine ply to it with gripfill would give you someting to screw some shelf brackets to. You could even screw some timber battens to the ply before putting it up. Really depends how much weight you want to put on it.

 

[Nige F]

You could be right about the asbestos. Doubt anyone is going to suggest you drill into it. Could you perhaps build a shelving unit to stand in place. Alternatively perhaps sticking some 18mm Marine ply to it with gripfill would give you someting to screw some shelf brackets to. You could even screw some timber battens to the ply before putting it up. Really depends how much weight you want to put on it.

hide it all with ply. if you sell up later it will cost a fortune to remove

 

[Johnboy54]

I worked extensively with asbestos, and would not recommend drilling it. One fibre of blue/white/brown asbestos is all that is needed to bed itself into the lung, causing asbestosis in later life.
The hole you make will create a weak-spot in the panel, leading to a possible crack later from the weight of the shelf. Then you end up with two edges rubbing together, sending fibres into the air.
However, if you really need to drill it, this is the method -
Put on a recommended mask for working with asbestos.
Coat your drill-bit with grease to catch as much fibre as you can.
Have someone, wearing a mask, hold a vaccuum nozzle under the hole whilst drilling - turned on, of course!
Put the drill-bit in a polythene bag and seal it, then put it inside another bag and seal it.
Put the vaccuum-bag inside two polythene bags the same way.
Now take off your masks.
Take it to the appropriate authority asbestos site.
Still feel like drilling it?

 

[numpty with a crowbar]

Possibly at risk of a flaming here but - here goes....

The whole asbestos risk is overhyped for the benefit of the asbestos removal industry, as it is in their interests to casue widespread panic. Left alone there is no danger to your health. Posibly not worth the risk in drilling it - just errect a frame, put up play across the inside of the structure, leave it and use self supporting units.

And check this site out if you have any chew - http://www.asbestoswatchdog.co.uk/index.html - they liase with the HSE so are 100% legit and are there to stop joe public being ripped off by contractors trying to use the understandable public confusion as a method of making cash

 

[brettjbuckley]

Ouch...maybe I shouldn't drill it after all!
Thanks for all the advice.

 

[Nige F]

Thanks Numpty. Have added link to favourites

 

[oilman]

One fibre of blue/white/brown asbestos is all that is needed to bed itself into the lung, causing asbestosis in later life.

As Numpty says, probably a terror tactic. If it was true most of us should be on our death beds, asbestos was used in car brakes for decades, and most of us started breathing it at birth.

 

[numpty with a crowbar]

asbestos was used in car brakes for decades, and most of us started breathing it at birth.

Aye - and ever noticed that break pads don't last half as long as they used to now since they stopped using it in them??

Ahh - they don't do nostalgia like they used to.....

As a side point - I've read that white asbestos is chemically the same as talc what you put on babies backsides (well - you do if you have a baby - if you don't and you're doing it then that's just perverse ) - it's the brown & blue that are the dodgy ones. and seeing as how (apparently) 90 odd percent of asbestos out there is the white, it's mostly hysteria exploited for cash

 

[TexMex]

Numpty. I agree whole heartedly with most of what you say, but:

Although white asbestos and talc both contain Mg6Si4O10(OH)8. Asbestos also contains a complex structure of SiO2 and MG(OH)2. The actual structure is a bit like microscopic swiss rolls. This leads to the fibrous nature of the Asbestos, and makes it's mass rather unstable.

Although talc is soft, it doesn't posses the dangerous fibrous nature of asbestos.

There's more to minerals than their chemical formula alone. As you probably know, graphite and diamond also have the same chemical make up. But you never see Graphite used for it's cutting abilities, or have diamonds added to axle grease to reduce wear of moving parts.

Although White asbestos is not quite as safe as talc, you're spot on about the scaremongering. I hope so anyway. As a lad in the early 60s, we used to play on a local building site where asbestos was being used. There were great piles of the dust around. During our adventures, we would, occaisionally, chuck great handfulls of this in each others faces. I also made various projects at home (such as my failed rocket powered push bike) with some of the "acquired" materials, totally oblivious to it's hazardous nature. So far, so good.

 

[oilman]

One fibre of blue/white/brown asbestos is all that is needed to bed itself into the lung, causing asbestosis in later life.

As Numpty says, probably a terror tactic. If it was true most of us should be on our death beds, asbestos was used in car brakes for decades, and most of us started breathing it at birth.

I've read through some of that link info. EVERYBODY should read it, it will reduce some of the ill founded garbage being spouted about asbestos. Well done Numpty.

 

[Johnboy54]

My bit -
I read the link, or most of it. It contradicts everything it sets out to disprove. It certainly says asbestos is dangerous if not handled correctly. True, if left undisturbed it is quite safe. But it doesn't usually get left undisturbed, does it?
As I said, I've worked with contractors/schools/local authorities... and have yet to find anyone say there's no dangers. I think by playing them down, you may give the impression that there's no problem with drilling/sawing/breaking/eating the stuff.
The local authority safety guy said to me, "Some people can breathe in lungfulls and have no problems. Others need only one fibre to bed itself into the lung to be unlucky". I asked which of the three types was most dangerous; "All of them! It depends on the individual as to which one can cause the damage."
If you look on the net, you'll find many organisations devoted to getting rid of the stuff safely. One woman has campaigned for 40 years after her husband died from asbestosis - and he was only a postman delivering letters to the factory. Others are women who contracted it after washing their husband's dusty work-clothes.
As for the HSE, here's their official thoughts -

http://www.hse.gov.uk/asbestos/

Anyone still think it's all scaremongering?
I don't see much evidence of the HSE working closely with anyone to dispel the notion we shouldn't be afraid.
'nuff said.

 

[TexMex]

Johnboy54
As you have noted, there are risks involved with asbestos, so not ALL the advice given about asbestos is scaremongering. There is an aweful lot of scaremongering around on this subject though. It is quite common to see advice that, any asbestos found in the home should be dealt with immediately by licenced contractors. Yet, as you admit, left undisturbed it doesn't pose an immediate threat.

You will also find advice saying it is illegal to dispose of asbestos from your own home (unless you happen to have a licence to do so). This is a blatent lie. Although it isn't recommended as a DIY job, there is no reason why someone couldn't educate themselves in the methods required for it's safe disposal.

I have even seen asbestos disposal companies claiming that "it is now law for you to have an asbestos survey done, even if you haven't previously come across any at your premisis." This type of claim is quite often made without any indication that it is extracted from a government document that applies to places of work.

Hopefully, we have presented a fairly balanced view. Beware the asbestos, but beware the scaremongering as well. It is out there. You'll also note that absolutely no-one has suggested our poster actually drills the asbestos.

 

[oilman]

The local authority safety guy said to me, "Some people can breathe in lungfulls and have no problems. Others need only one fibre to bed itself into the lung to be unlucky".

There's an example of a statement not founded in fact. The first part may be acceptable, but to claim "only one fibre" is untestable and unprovable.

There is a risk of sorts with almost every substance in existence, water can kill you, but you will die without it.

One insidious llittle danger I have noticed is that once brake pads would last for ages when they contained asbestos. Now they have a much shorter life. Worse than this is the rate they wear down the brake discs. Discs would last for the life of the car at one time, I have changed the discs twice on my van and once on te car. Both have done 122k.

This could be a bit nasty if people have little brake material left when they need it.

 

[Johnboy54]

This is definitely my last word on the subject, you'll be pleased to know. I blame brettjbuckley.
Has anyone ever seen asbestos removed following the guidelines?
The whole area is enclosed in a sealed, air-tight polythene tent.
There's a large extractor fan filtering the disturbed air out.
The entrance is through a double sided shower cubicle - clean/dirty sides.
This leads to a triple air-locked tunnel.
The lads wear paper overalls - underneath space-suits that are filtered.
The asbestos is put inside sealed polythene bags.
Then, inside another sealed polythene bag.
This lot is put inside locked asbestos containers.
When the work is complete, the whole area is vacuumed.
Then, an inspector takes air samples. He isn't testing for asbestos, he's testing that the air itself is scrupulously clean. If it is, you can guarantee there's no asbestos circulating.

Given that asbestos in all its forms is either friable or solid, somehow it must be contained in the area of use.
Solid stuff is screwed/nailed in place.
If you remove the solid stuff, as used in house walls, you make it friable, releasing fibres into the air.
Yes, you are right that householders can remove and dispose of asbestos without getting contractors in. But how can you educate them to do this without following the correct, very expensive procedure? Where are they going to get all that gear from?
The guidelines are from the government, not an asbestos removal contractor.

True, if left undisturbed it is quite safe. But it doesn't usually get left undisturbed, does it?

That's what I said. How often is an asbestos wall left undisturbed in a house? Drilled/nailed as often as walls in your own house are.
I don't doubt there are companies out there scaring people into using them, but don't minimize the inherent dangers with DIY removal.

There's an example of a statement not founded in fact. The first part may be acceptable, but to claim "only one fibre" is untestable and unprovable.

No, it's not. How do you think they find out the cause of death?
They take out the lung and dissect it.
In the case of blue/brown asbestos, the single, barbed fibre lodges onto the lung's lining. White asbestos is shaped like a needle, but still can't always be absorbed. The lung reacts by forming a skin over it, as an attempted repair job. This forms a scar. The scar hardens and thickens. Then it spreads. Then...

For many reasons, the subject of asbestos has been a cause celebre of mine for several years.
Does it show?
Sermon finished.
Honest!