Electrical Qualifications for Renovations and Security

[badgermilk]

Hi,

I am new to the forum so please accept my apologies of this is in the wrong section, I looked for an introductions section and didn't see it so again sorry if I should do that first.

My question is regarding the necessary qualifications for carrying out some ongoing electrical works on my own property.

I have a background in both mechanical engineering and general building maintenance and have an understanding of electrical principles. As my work was overseas and in places where lets just say qualifications weren't exactly a requirement I would definitely need some training to bring my work up to 'standard' but my real query is what qualifications would I need to obtain in order for my work to be legal?

The work is to be mainly for on my own properties and for carrying out work on property renovations that I intend to purchase and sell.

My friend is a busy locksmith and subs out a lot of alarm systems and security light fitting and we have spoken seriously about me doing a portion of that work for him.

The big draw for me (and my locksmith friend) doing these works rather than using someone else has been the trouble over the years with finding someone who is both reliable and flexible.

I have mostly hired in for work on my previous properties due to working abroad most of the time and while a couple of the guys are very reliable, trustworthy etc, they are obviously not always available when I need them as they are in high demand and not short of work. The ones who are available most of the time can tend to be unreliable, untidy and in a couple of cases dishonest and unsafe.

The works I would like to do would be replacing distribution boards, adding/ moving sockets and lights, adding exterior lights and installing mains fire and security alarms.

For full rewires etc I would still use a fully credited electrician if needs be but I would like to do ad hoc and more minor works myself and obviously work for my friend now I am home for good for family reasons.

I appreciate any help.

Many Thanks
Badger

 

[ericmark]

It's not qualifications which is the problem but the cost of getting LABC to issue the paper work required.

Some jobs don't need LABC involvement others do and we can argue until the cows come home as to what is reportable and what is not.

All work should be inspected and tested and to buy a test set will cost around £750 to hire around £75 clearly many don't test or use cheap £50 plug in testers which only test some of the things required.

Where you don't have to submit test results clearly know one knows if you have tested or not.

Only when something goes wrong does anyone care. Mrs Whittall and Emma Shaw cases are rare thank goodness but when it does go wrong it can be very costly.

 

[badgermilk]

Hi Eric,

Thank you for your reply and the interesting reads you linked to. Again, in my opinion this highlights my own need to educate myself further as even the bigger contractors don't always get it right.

The loss of life in both cases is terrible for the families and is an avoidable

The cost of a test kit whether bought or hired would pay for itself in due course I am sure.

I guess really my question is then What is the minimum training I would need in order to 'know' how to carry out the work according to the necessary safety level and learn how to test adequately.

While I am experienced in other complicated work I feel the need for some formal training and certification particularly as retro fitting security lights into social housing, offices and private properties for someone else I will need insurance and surely some form of certification.

The need arises for my colleague as the work comes in for him at short notice, as I will be working on my own property renovations I will be more readily available than the sparkys he is currently using.

I am almost certain that I wouldn't need to go through the training of a fully qualified electrician starting from scratch. I certainly aren't undermining the training and anyone who has had it but for adding into a system that I understand but would perhaps need to know specific requirements to be able to passed off.

I will check with Building Control if the work I am doing needs to be notified as I have done already with my previous renovations. I guess once in writing will do the trick as most properties I renovate are in the same jurisdiction.

Would a Part P course suffice or should I just speak to a training provider, I wanted to ask here first as if I were them, i would probably just sell me the most expensive course.

To clarify, I want to be able to add/ move sockets and lights, add fire and security alarms to the circuit and fit outdoor lighting to the required standards and as pointed out 'safely' without going back in time and doing an electrical apprenticeship

I would do a full year long course or whatever it is if required but I would think it might be outside its worth time and money wise as I wouldn't work it in for myself to tackle a full rewire, at that level it is more cost effective to hire an electrician.

To put it into perspective, we can renovate a house between four of us in about 4 to 8 weeks that is with a joiner, a general builder/ plasterer, myself doing the plumbing and gas/ landscaping (and hoping to do the electrics) and a painter/ decorator/ carpet fitter. Obviously all of us being fairly multi skilled.

The gas work is done or at least certified by my brother in law who will come in whenever I need him if we are upgrading/ installing a new boiler and for the kitchen.

The only external trades if needed are window fitters, roofers and builders. It is rare that we need them as we are mainly carrying out cosmetic work.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Hello, and welcome.

Your first step should be to aquaint yourself as to the legal requirements regarding certain electrical work.
This can be found here //www.diynot.com/wiki/Electrics:part_p:DIY-Electrical-Work-and-the-Law

As you will see, Building Regs Part P basically says that electrical work should be done safely.
I am not sure that a "Part P" course is as there is no "Part P" qualification, but "Part P" by its nature means that you should be competent to carry out the work safely. This means you need training in The Wiring Regulations, this is a substantial craft-based course.….it will teach you what you need to know, and you'll get some qualifications at the end - but its not a few days. Allow 3 years.

So, then you'll know how to do design, install and test the work. You can then fill in an installation certificate having checked that all of your test results are correct.

Then you will find that you will have to notify some works to the local authority. The link above will show you what you need to notify but this does include any new circuits, work in special locations and new consumer units. Probably most of the work you have in mind.

If you are doing this work for others, then you'll need to join one of the CPS schemes (NAPIT, NICEIC, ELECSA, etc). To join, you'll need certain ququaliificationsper the above). Have calibrated test equipment, full PLI insurance and be prepared to part with around £500 a year for the privilege.

 

[ericmark]

I started as an auto electrician which of course still included 3 phase and high voltage with plant like the electro-haul using rather a lot of power.

But returning to UK I too was uneasy about rules and regulations but at that time college courses were cheap. I did a succession of night classes at about £60 each with the as then 16th Edition, PAT testing and Inspection and Testing most of my work being commercial with large projects like the building of Sizewell Power Station I was also with other electricians.

As an auto electrician working abroad I had moved across to working on crushing plants and batching plants and in the UK it was not how to do the job which was a problem but the rules and regulations I was very conversant with star/delta start, auto transformer start, and resistor start etc it was just the information contained in the BS7671 which was new to me so it was just a case of reading the book. Together with the on-site guide.

My father ran a power station he was technical manager only 25 MW not the double 500 MW I worked on but also my father-in-law was the electrical project director for a large hospital board so between them I had always some one to ask. Having gained skills like programming PLC's finding work was not a problem in large multi-national factories including Vauxhall and Toyota in the main I was not designing an installation but repairing one or following detailed plans.

In 1995 for the first time I started design first was for a large water company designing emergency stop systems and isolation systems for pumping stations really just using the knowledge I gained working for SLD pumps back in the 1970's but in 2000 I moved to designing concrete pressing machines and for the first time came into one to one contact with the HSE. It is daunting when you realise all the men working in the factories safety depends on your design. But not so much electric as mechanical and pneumatic ensuring safety switches would remove power to right items but not for example items which could fall on anyone if power is removed. Such as the volumemetrics which without power could allow 1/2 a ton of concrete to escape.

I latter still took a degree in electronic and electrical engineering but oddly very little was taught about health and safety in fact I on a few occasions pulled up the lecturers for heath and safety breaches.

When I first started we referred to house bashers as lowest of the low electricians and thought of them as monkeys but today the tables have turned. The house electrician in days gone by followed the same design house to house with very little inspection and testing if any and his hardest job was to wire the central heating boiler. Those days have gone and today unlike the commercial electrician who in the main follows plans the house electrician is required to design the system. He also needs to use his experience to work out what will likely happen when he leaves. For example putting a hatch in the floor marked electrical junction box below while the house has just floor boards will comply. But once the carpet is fitted or other flooring then it no longer complies. Again unlike the commercial he is required to use type tested equipment.

As a commercial electrician I made errors. I installed a cable which was too small for the load and the shrink wrap machine failed to run. It was however no big deal to run new heavier cables along trunking and tray work to rectify the fault. With a house it is a completely different situation requiring ripping up floor boards and chasing walls to correct the same error.

So with commercial I would guessermate cable size then test after with loop impedance tested it was rare for me to get it wrong but even if I did it was not a big problem. With domestic it does need careful calculation as errors can't be corrected. At least without high expense.

Back to the three exams I took for around £200 for the three today same exams with course are around £350 each and so far less people are doing them as a night class. As a result today in the main to do the course means day release. My son was lucky he did the courses the year after me still cheap and today works for a firm who will give him day release to do his HNC. But getting day release for level 3 courses is hard in the main it's only for higher education one can get day release other than doing an apprenticeship.

To do degree I had to show recent learning so did access to HE in local college a full time course. While doing this I sat in on some electrical apprentice courses with idea I may do these as well. But sitting in a class of budding electricians who didn't realise gold was a conductor was not for me.

A full time college course is still cheap. And full time = 16 hours a week but fitting a full time course around a working life would not be easy. I was injured and for 10 years could not work so I was able to take full time courses but it would be very expensive other wise.

The scheme operators require an annual payment. I looked at this payment and unless you intend to work full time as an electrician on domestic just not worth it. So if I want to work as a house basher I have to cross the boarder where there are less restrictions.

Even then there are problems. It's all well and good if the job goes according to plan. But find you have made an error and there are no RCBO's for that make and model of consumer unit and suddenly the job costs £500 more as it needs the consumer unit changing.

Going to a job and then turning ones back on it because it needs registering is hard and I have seen again and again how English electricians have done work in Wales and then been hounded for the compliance or completion certificate which they had not realised was required as it not required in England. Consumer unit changing and bathroom work is becoming a specialist work as electricians who do a mixture of domestic and commercial are realising it's not worth the money to be a scheme member.

Commercial is also becoming a problem with so many cards which need renewing to be allowed to work. When I started one could flit between the two. Today one has to decide which as it just costs so much to take all the courses to stay updated. When I took my first cherry picker licence the delivery driver showed you the controls and signed the back of the instruction book. Today it's far more involved. Forklift is the same.

However in my fathers day it was even harder to break into a trade. When he married my mum he found a guy was doing a tradesman's job without having finished an apprenticeship so he was able to get this guy booted out of the job even though he had been doing it for 4 years so he could have the job. That was the rules then until Thatcher stopped it. What we are slowing doing is returning to that situation. Change of name but function is still the same. It was called a Union now called scheme provider only difference is now they charge more.

 

[badgermilk]

Thanks TTW, I think I will have to work backwards and speak to the governing bodies you mentioned regarding to see what they say.

Thanks eric for taking the time to explain your situation which is similar in some respects to myself. Your electrical experience is far more in depth than mine but I do know that I am more than capable of doing the works I intend to do.

I think I will leave off the replacing of the DBs and focus on installing the alarm systems and fitting the security lights.

Thanks

Badger