En suite Wiring in Loft...pics

[Paul-man]

Feast your eyes upon these!

I went to my loft earlier to plan a potential satellite cable run and was looking for the top of the wall which separates my bedroom from the en suite.

After lifting a couple of bits of insulation, I found THIS!

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Basically, in our en suite we have 3 downlights fed off the 12V transformer (I assume!) and a ceiling extractor fan above the shower. Both are switched via a double switch in the bedroom on aforementioned wall.

The two white wires in the pic below seem to go down inside the wall and into the switch. (but have no earths connected)



The grey wire running top to bottom I THINK goes down into a single plug socket, which I believe to be on the upstairs ring main, I haven't checked it. I thought this was a simple spur until I saw the other grey wire running across the picture. Can't work out exactly where this goes, but it is heading for another bedroom.

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Surely the wires shouldn't have been left like that?
(This work was done/ requested by the previous owners. It surprises me because they provided receipts for a lot of the work they had done for them)
Although this is in the loft, it is for appliances in an en suite, so I guess getting it sorted means going for a competent person?

At some point I might need a socket or 2 in the loft for a distribution amp.
Do you think these will be able to come off of the grey ring main / spur wire?

I also want to add a couple of strip lights. Can these be taken from the lighting circuit?

 

[electronicsuk]

Tidying up those connector blocks and either putting everything inside a choc box or other suitably enclosed JB would not be notifiable work as, IMO, although these circuits are entering the bathroom, you would not be doing any work on the installation in the bathroom.

It would also be advisable to get that transformer out from under the insulation, as they require proper ventilation to avoid overheating.

 

[Paul-man]

Thanks Matthew.

The transformer itself wasn't under the insulation as the insulation was sitting between the joists. However, I may add more insulation at some point, so will consider moving the transformer then.

Do you think that it's best to tidy this by using those little choc block containers made famous by dragon's den?

How about taking another socket off of that mains wiring? Should that fan have an FCU?

 

[sparkwright]

The lighting wiring needs clipping to the joists, joint formed within a junction box. All earth wires should be sleeved with green and yellow sleeving. All earth wires should be connected together, and not cut off.

The grey cable looks like it may be a 1.0 mm cable, probably connected to lighting. Does the cable look the same size as those dodgy looking white ones?

If this cable IS part of the ring circuit, you then need to find out if it is a spur, or if it is directly part of the ring.

IF it is a spur on the sockets RING you MAY still be able to fit a 13 amp fused connection unit somewhere through it to supply your new socket.

 

[electronicsuk]

Do you think that it's best to tidy this by using those little choc block containers made famous by dragon's den?

Nothing wrong with that, although don't forget that the cables need to be supported, which either means purchasing a box with cable clamps/grips or clipping down the cables where they enter the box.

How about taking another socket off of that mains wiring?

If it's part of the ring then yes, you can take another socket off it. More information needed.

Should that fan have an FCU?

Depends on whether or not the manufacturer recommends that one be fitted. Is there any other form of local isolation for cleaning and maintenance of the fan, such as a double pole pullcord? If not, is there a window in the room, such that the circuit can be turned off for maintenance purposes while still having enough light in the room to work?

 

[sparkwright]

Do you think that it's best to tidy this by using those little choc block containers made famous by dragon's den?

Use a large 20 amp round junction box. 4 terminal or 6 terminal versions are available. Screw it to a joist.

 

[Paul-man]

Should that fan have an FCU?

Depends on whether or not the manufacturer recommends that one be fitted. Is there any other form of local isolation for cleaning and maintenance of the fan, such as a double pole pullcord? If not, is there a window in the room, such that the circuit can be turned off for maintenance purposes while still having enough light in the room to work?

As it happens, the instructions were in the loft under the insulation. There is no other isolation, although i notice that the wiring diagram suggests a double pole isolator as you mention.

There is a window in the room where the fan is.

Sounds like less of a problem than I first thought though.

 

[Paul-man]

Update:

Have removed the faceplate of the single socket on the bedroom wall and it doesn't have a spur. Therefore, I can't work out where that grey cable is coming from.

At the CU in the garage, all of the cables have a white sheaf, except the cooker circuit. I've taken off a few faceplates in the area (upstairs and down) and they all look like the original wiring.

The house is about 20 years old. All ring main wiring appears to be under the floorboards feeding up the walls and all light (switches) appear to come down the walls. Therefore I am assuming a pretty standard installation.

If you were visiting my house, where would you start looking to find the other end of that cable?

 

[sparkiedave]

one by one, turn off the breakers and see which one stops the fan from working, if it's on the ring circuit it'll need an fcu with probably a 3amp fuse

 

[sparkwright]

This cable you can't tell where it's coming from;

Where does the other end of it go to?

Is it connected to those connector blocks?

 

[Paul-man]

Sorry to restart an old thread.
Got myself a 6 terminal JB the other day and had a look at this job last night.

Firstly I found the following:

1) The grey cable which disapeers down into the stud wall is nothing to do with the ring main. It was connected in to this lighting circuit. I have disconnected this and tried all lights in the house. They all seem to work. I have left it dis-con for now, it isn't live when the breaker is switched on.

2) One of the white cables goes straight to the shower pump- so basically the sparks has taken a spur straight off the lighting circuit and fitted an FCU from which he has wired the pump. Do I need to make alternative arrangements for this? (ie get it moved?) Cable is 1 or 1.5mm sq stuff and is cable tied to the plastic shower pipes!

3) In total, excluding the grey cable I've disconnected, there are 8 cables. This seems quite a lot to get into one of those boxes (20A JB) and a couple of the terminals need to have 6 wires in.

4) Earths- I'm restoring the Earths which have been cut off. The 3 from the original lighting circuit had been twisted together THEN put into sleeving. Is this ok or does each individual wire need sleeving?

 

[MalcofArabia]

1) Is there a shaver socket in the bathroom? If not is there a blank plate as they may have taken a feed down fro something.

2) Well it's normal to spur from a ring final circuit but not unheard of from a light circuit for fans etc. What is the power of the pump? suspect it's about 1 amp or less, if so just make sure the spur as a 3amp cartridge fuse fitted to protect the cable.

3) It does seem a lot and it may pay you to think about getting an adaptable box with klippons in and glands

http://mrohms.com/shop/article_GW44...able-Box.html?shop_param=cid=777&aid=GW44208&

http://www.parkelect.co.uk/Products...nals---Accessories/KLIPPON-RSF1-TERMINAL.aspx

http://www.din-rail.com

http://www.euroclust.biz/catalog/cable-management/accessories/cable-glands.aspx?c=c

But whatever you do if there are that many cable MARK them for reconnection

4)No that is fine as long as the conductor is covered

 

[Paul-man]

1) Is there a shaver socket in the bathroom? If not is there a blank plate as they may have taken a feed down fro something.

2) Well it's normal to spur from a ring final circuit but not unheard of from a light circuit for fans etc. What is the power of the pump? suspect it's about 1 amp or less, if so just make sure the spur as a 3amp cartridge fuse fitted to protect the cable.

3) It does seem a lot and it may pay you to think about getting an adaptable box with klippons in and glands

http://mrohms.com/shop/article_GW44...able-Box.html?shop_param=cid=777&aid=GW44208&

http://www.parkelect.co.uk/Products...nals---Accessories/KLIPPON-RSF1-TERMINAL.aspx

http://www.din-rail.com

http://www.euroclust.biz/catalog/cable-management/accessories/cable-glands.aspx?c=c

But whatever you do if there are that many cable MARK them for reconnection

4)No that is fine as long as the conductor is covered

Cheers Malc,

1) Can't find a shaver socket etc. I've just reconnected the cable as I had an idea that it could possibly be fore the alarm code panel. It still appeared to operate when discon but I thought there used to be an unset light permanantly on. This however hasn't returned (Didn't think this would need a spur though as the main control box has it's own breaker on the CU)

2) Think it does have a fuse. I just wish that they'd taken it from a different rose so there weren't so many cables to deal with!

3) I wish I'd not started now! Those boxes and rails look confusing and expensive.

4) Thanks

 

[MalcofArabia]

Well down to you my man.

To get all those cables into a single JB is going to need something exceptional.

I reckon a box, few clips din rail etc will be about 30 notes but so much easier to work with.

 

[Paul-man]

Well down to you my man.

To get all those cables into a single JB is going to need something exceptional.

I reckon a box, few clips din rail etc will be about 30 notes but so much easier to work with.

I'm now going to put them into 3 boxes, with the Shower Pump spur running off of one, the "mystery wire" spurred off of another, leaving me with fewer cables concerning the ELV lights and fan.

I also noticed that going to the fan are two wires, one which has live neutral and earth all connected and the other which just has the live wire in use. I presume this could be replaced with a 3-core and Earth instead (and was how it should have been done in the first place?)

Doing this would reduce cables to 2 switch cables, an "in and out" for the 6A lighting circuit and 2 cables off to the lights and fan. A total of 6 cables which appears much more "doable" than 9.