Farrow & Ball Paint Peeling - Help

[SeasiderFishy]

Hi,

We've hired a decorator to decorate our front room. He has stripped the room and his colleague has skimmed the room - this all looked fine. He then applied a watered coat of dulux emulsion to the skimmed Walls when they were dry including the ceiling. After a few days he has then applied two coats of farrow and ball estate emulsion to the ceiling. This proceeded to bubble overnight.

Then there were several discussions with farrow and ball and the decorator (both say it is not their fault). F&b say either the mist cost was two watered down leaving nothing for the paint to bond to, or the second coat was applied before the first was fully dry. The decorator is adamant he has never had an issue with a mist coat before like this.

Given all that today he came back, sanded down the ceiling and filled the bubbles and has applied another coat of emulsion. Now this evening it seems to be bubbling again. I am at a loss here.

To me it seems either the F&B paint is not adhering to the mist coat or the mist coat is not adhering to the plaster. I have been away this week so have not seen under the bubbles to see if it has stripped from the plaster or the mist coat.

Either way we have a bubbling ceiling that we need to fix. If there is no bond there applying more paint is not going to work. What do we do ?

 

[RigidRaider]

I'm no expert but we always use Little Greene Paint Co, which is also good quality paint like F&B. We have always applied watered down PVA to seal bare plaster and the only time we ever had a problem with PVA was where we double-coated a couple of areas and the PVA film peeled off, bringing the paint with it in a film. Only ever seen bubbling once though when we were painting over a wall that had been papered and stripped, the remaining paste was the problem.

I wonder if your plaster was dry enough?

 

[1john]

It is bubbling because the plaster is trying to dry out through it, it should have been left at least a week or there is specialist paint to go on wet plaster which breathes.

 

[SeasiderFishy]

I thought it might be the plaster not drying out enough but the problem has also happened with cracking and starting to peel around the wall edges in an understairs toilet which was skimmed 2 months ago so is very dry. The main issue though is in the living room with a fair bit of peeling.

Just this week we took farrow and balls advice and mist coated the hallway and landing with their ceiling and wall primer watered 20% again on their recommendation and have a little flaking on the landing ceiling again. That is both a dulux mist coat and farrow and ball mist cost both causing peeling when the full farrow and ball coat has gone over the top of them.

I am at a loss now and am thinking it must have been the preparation of the plaster. Perhaps too smooth a surface so the paint did not soak in properly (I have experienced this before) or perhaps something on the surface of the plaster, e.g. dust. Another interesting thing is the plaster in the hall and the understairs toilet were done by different plasters and we have the same issue in both areas allbeit more minor than the living room.

Another idea is whether the recent cold has affected it or perhaps moisture in the house.

 

[conny]

I'm not a decorator, just DIY, but as you say, maybe there was moisture still present.
However, your reference to different plasters, (though I take it you meant 'plasterers'), did raise a suspicion. Two possibilities are; Different brands/types of finish plaster, or, the plaster was at/past its shelf life. Even if it was bought in fresh from the builders for your job who knows how long its been on the builders shelf? So much easier for a lazy employee to dump the new delivery on top of the stock already there than to rotate it.
Sorry couldn't be more helpful.

 

[mointainwalker]

I can appreciate that you want to know why, but this is your decorator's problem.

He prepared the surfaces, accepted/chose what paints to use and it is his responsibility to resolve the problem.

 

[geraldthehamster]

I'm no expert but we always use Little Greene Paint Co, which is also good quality paint like F&B. We have always applied watered down PVA to seal bare plaster and the only time we ever had a problem with PVA was where we double-coated a couple of areas and the PVA film peeled off, bringing the paint with it in a film. Only ever seen bubbling once though when we were painting over a wall that had been papered and stripped, the remaining paste was the problem.

I wonder if your plaster was dry enough?

Just an observation, it's not usual practice to use PVA on bare plaster that is to be painted, but to use a mist coat of diluted emulsion. You were lucky with yours, but PVA is likely to give greater problems with paint not adhering.

Cheers
Richard

 

[RigidRaider]

Thanks for that; we have been given all kinds of contrasting advice and yes, have begun to think PVA alone is a bad idea except perhaps on coving, which gobbles paint. Recently we have tried mixing a little PVA into the first coat, which seems to have worked OK.... so far...... and at least this reduces the number of times you have to paint!

 

[geraldthehamster]

Thanks for that; we have been given all kinds of contrasting advice and yes, have begun to think PVA alone is a bad idea except perhaps on coving, which gobbles paint. Recently we have tried mixing a little PVA into the first coat, which seems to have worked OK.... so far...... and at least this reduces the number of times you have to paint!

PVA under emulsion is a bad idea, full stop, as it will have a tendency to peel. It prevents the paint bonding with the substrate. PVA is use to seal a surface that is to take plaster, and helps the plaster to adhere, but not under paint.

If you mean plaster coving then I'd start with thinned paint, once again.

Cheers
Richard

 

[mointainwalker]

@gth

I know that PVA forms a film therefore stopping bonding, but I don't understand your statement

".. PVA is use to seal a surface that is to take plaster, and helps the plaster to adhere,"

How can it both seal a surface and -at the same time - help adhesion ?

Since the plaster weighs so much more than paint, surely this guarantees it will fall off ?

 

[geraldthehamster]

@gth

I know that PVA forms a film therefore stopping bonding, but I don't understand your statement

".. PVA is use to seal a surface that is to take plaster, and helps the plaster to adhere,"

How can it both seal a surface and -at the same time - help adhesion ?

Since the plaster weighs so much more than paint, surely this guarantees it will fall off ?

If you're reskimming a wall, you first seal the surface with PVA to bond it all together. When that's dry a second coat of PVA is applied and plastered when still tacky, which helps the plaster bond to the wall.

Just accept that paint and plaster are different things, and behave in different ways

Cheers
Richard

 

[RigidRaider]

I believe the PVA prevents the new coat of plaster from drying out too fast as well; you need it to go off chemically before it dries.

 

[lily694]

It is bubbling because the plaster is trying to dry out through it, it should have been left at least a week or there is specialist paint to go on wet plaster which breathes.

I absolutely agree with his opinion

 

[Ibanez29]

I would never paint on new skim unless it has been dried for at least a 2 weeks. I too agree the plaster has not been dried out right.

This is the fault of your painter and he should be back to sort the problem out!!

I had the same problem when using pva on new plaster but at least I fixed it.

I only use pva for plastering and self leveling I think it should never be used as a surface to paint on.

 

[thatbloke]

I would use an undercoat with a paint like Farrow and Ball, its unpredictable at the best of times.