Finding the cause of Damp

[Johncp]

Folks

I am a lessee in a block of flats and act as director of the block's landlord company. The building is circa 1913, is brick with lime mortar and 6 inch reinforced concrete floors.

Two flats, on the 1st and 2nd floors, have 9 sq meter balconies one above the other. The upper balcony is supported on the lower balcony by walls on two sides and brick columns on the open sides. The balconies are quarry tiled with drain channels along their outer sides parallel with the coping. These drain thru' cast iron pipes in the brickwork to a vertical rainwater pipe.

The ground floor flat below the balconies has substantial damp over 2-3 sq metres on the inside of an external wall directly below the open side of the balconies, which has persisted for nearly 2 years. To fix the damp we commissioned a surveyor to inspect, generate a schedule of work and to supervise a contract to fix the damp. The contract repaired rain water goods & repointing but the damp persisted. We called back the surveyors who pottered about and produced another report basically stating they couldn't find the cause and that we should commission a further investigation from them. Later we made more repairs to a rain water pipe spur passing thru' brickwork. We have 3 times called to site a pipework/drains specialist to check the rainwater goods inc. pipe spurs and the ground level gulley and I am personally satisfied that all rainwater goods including the pipe spurs are now watertight and that water is not backing up the downpipe.

We recently brought new surveyors to site but after nearly 2 hours of damp measurements/inspection they expressed no firm opinion as to cause and suggest that the wall be left to dry out and be reinspected at the end of summer.

Presently we are ~13K down, with an angry gnd floor lessee and no solution. I believe (and our builder) that the problem is water getting into brickwork between the upper balcony tiles and cracks in its drain channel, passing down the central brick column and into the gnd floor flat. A good downpour might provide the evidence needed to convince the surveyor of this but in case we have a dry summer I need to take further steps now.

So I have two questions:

1. Can someone recommend a firm that can perform tests to establish that water is getting into the brickwork (columns) from the balconies ?

Something along the lines of pouring water, perhaps with dye, onto the balconies and by taking damp meter measurements before and after soaking the balconies, are able to produce a report showing conclusively that water is passing between tiles and thru' drain channel cracks on the upper balcony into the central pillar, and into the external wall of the gnd floor flat.

The report must be able to determine whether we need to renew the tiles and drain channel of just the upper balcony or of both balconies

2. Can someone advise as to how the tiles should be removed ?.

A builder told me that if they are just "kangoed" up then debris could fill any cracks in the concrete making them difficult to spot. I have no reason to suspect the concrete, only the tiles and drain channel, but further work must be done correctly and, because of many past problems with surveyors, I don't feel I can just leave a schedule of further repairs to them.

You can find pics at: http://www.tfcta.homechoice.co.uk

 

[hotrod]

We recently brought new surveyors to site but after nearly 2 hours of damp measurements/inspection they expressed no firm opinion as to cause

Tis one of the Ten Commandments of RICS, "Thou shalt not express a definitive opinion"

 

[^woody^]

OMG, there must be some incompetent surveyors down there if they can't trace water penetration in a situation like this. The fact that you need to ask on a DIY site for answers which professional surveyors could not give, says something

It's basic Sherlock Holmes stuff ...... consider what is possible, eliminate what is impossible (or least likely) and then find what is most probable.

Take the quarry tiles up, apply a waterproof compound to the balcony, check and rectify any flashing/upstand/cavity tray etc, then relay the tiles. Sort out any drainage channel pipe too.

Cast ironwork built into walls is going to be near its life end, so this is another thing to check and rectify.

The tiles can be "kango'd" up and then the sub-base blasted with a compressor air line to remove any grit and debris. And significant cracks can be sealed with a proprietary epoxy or the waterproofing compound may do it, depending on what is used

TBH, the exposed balcony is going to be at its life end. So irrespective of any other issues with drainage, this should have been considered as in need of replacement.

Having said that, you must be satisfied that the work specified previously has been carried out properly. If it has, I'd certainly be seeking some compensation from the surveying firm - they were engaged to do a job which is within their professional expertise, and they have failed ... miserably

It may be worth seeking out this chap from down your way. He is a recognised expert, lecturer and author on damp problems. Or

this guy who is similarly qualified

 

[Johncp]

"OMG, there must be some incompetent surveyors down there if they can't trace water penetration in a situation like this. The fact that you need to ask on a DIY site for answers which professional surveyors could not give, says something"

>>Long experience has taught me that it's essential to supervise & check everything they do . .

"It's basic Sherlock Holmes stuff ...... consider what is possible, eliminate what is impossible (or least likely) and then find what is most probable".

>>I've eliminated the rainwater goods and building interior. The damp is worse after rain and the balconies are the only possible source - as far as I can see

"Take the quarry tiles up, apply a waterproof compound to the balcony, check and rectify any flashing/upstand/cavity tray etc, then relay the tiles. Sort out any drainage channel pipe too".

>>The cost of just relaying tiles & screed to a single balcony is 3-4K according to our builder. Under the lease tiles/ screed are lessee's responsibility, structural stuff the landlord (ie service charges). The lessee(s) with the balconies acknowledge the problem but whatever they privately think they won't accept the cost of repairing their balconies without the opinion of a surveyor as per the lease. If the costs were the landlord's I would have told our builder to repair both balconies months ago. If the work becomes structural we need the surveyor to arbitrate as to the cost split between landlord/lessee(s).

"Cast ironwork built into walls is going to be near its life end, so this is another thing to check and rectify".

>>There is no visible cast iron in the balconies but the 6 inch concrete slab floors in the block have 9mm steel reinforcing rods inside, near the underside.

"The tiles can be "kango'd" up and then the sub-base blasted with a compressor air line to remove any grit and debris. And significant cracks can be sealed with a proprietary epoxy or the waterproofing compound may do it, depending on what is used"

>>That's useful info, thanks

"TBH, the exposed balcony is going to be at its life end. So irrespective of any other issues with drainage, this should have been considered as in need of replacement".

>>Correct, balcony tiles/drain channels are lifted/cracked/broken. But lessees will not spend money to fix their balconies unless absolutely necessary or if pushed. The lease might give us scope to force repairs, but in the event of dispute (inevitable) the lease specifies a chartered surveyor to arbitrate. It's catch22 - we need a RICS

"Having said that, you must be satisfied that the work specified previously has been carried out properly. If it has, I'd certainly be seeking some compensation from the surveying firm - they were engaged to do a job which is within their professional expertise, and they have failed ... miserably"

>>The thought of suing surveyors sounds like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling. And we would need the opinion of a surveyor as to the quality of the previous surveyor's work

"It may be worth seeking out this chap from down your way. He is a recognised expert, lecturer and author on damp problems. Or
this guy who is similarly qualified"

>>Thanks for the references. I'll contact them directly.

>>PS Sorry, pics are not accessible currently. The link worked when I posted but now Tiscali (they bought Homechoice) has let me down (again). .. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER use Tiscali as your broadband provider

 

[^woody^]

Its a bit odd that the maintenance of tiles, screed and associated drainage channels have been delegated to the leaseholders.

Under L&T relevant legislation, the tiles would have a structural and waterproofing function, and the screed is deemed part of the structure, and are therefore a landlords responsibility - as is drainage and disposal of rainwater.

A landlord can not discharge his responsibilities under Statute, to a contract (ie the lease agreement) therefore these items are not a leaseholders responsibility and will always be the responsibility of the landlord.

 

[Johncp]

Hi Woody

Thanks for all the advice .. Regarding our lease it is fairly clear - and our interpretation has been confirmed by Norton Rose Solicitors. I am modestly familiar with Landlord&Tenant85 and L&T87, Leasehold Reform 1993, Commonhold & Leasehold Reform 2002 (the most important statutes regarding Landlord & Tenant) and I can't recall any sections which override our lease in respect of who pays what

The Lease reads

The Retained Premises .. (but not the glass in the windows of the flats nor the plaster on the ceilings or walls or the screed on the floors of the flat) . .

The Demised premises reads
ALL THAT FLAT known as number . . . which flat shall be deemed to include the plaster on the ceilings and walls and screed on the floors the windows and window frames thereof together with all cisterns tanks sewers gutters drains pipes wires radiators ducts conduits or other media aerials and installations and any sanitary water gas electrical heating or ventilation apparutus used solely for the pupose of or incorporated solely within the flats and all the landlord's fixtures and fittings which are now or may at any time be in the flat which for the purpose of identification only is coloured red on the plan annexed hereto are hereinafter called "the Premises".

And in respect of the tenants responsibilities to the landlord the lease reads

The FOURTH SCHEDULE . . .Covenants by the Tenant with the Landlord

5. To repair and keep the premises and all additions thereto and any external balcony in good and substantial repair and condition at all times during the term including the renewal rebuilding and replacement forthwith of the whole or any worn or damage parts thereof (damage by fire and other risks insured against by the Landlord excepted provided that payments of the policy moneys are not withheld or refused by reason of any act or default of the Tenant.

My interpretation of "Worn and damaged parts" is tiles and I interpret "screed" as the stuff immediately under the tiles and on top of what must be a 6 inch concrete slab.

Cheers John

 

[^woody^]

LTA 1985 section 11 (1) a - states that the landlord is responsible for the "structure and exterior", and various caselaw has defined what this is, and this would include the balcony and tiles and screed, and drainage.

This obligation can not be contracted out of via a lease agreement (LTA 1985 section 12)

There may be instances where s11 may not apply to a particular lease, so whether this is one of those I can't say

However, if I was a tenant then I would have taken out a claim of Statutory Nuisance under the EPA 1990, and given you 21 days to correct the damp or argue in the Magistrates court.

And then hit you with a claim for compensation under the Defective Premises Act 1972 - for the landords failure to make the property safe

 

[Johncp]

But L&T85 S11 only applies to short leases, under 7 years (as defined under see L&T85 S13). Our leases are 99 yrs.

I have just contacted Ralph Burkinshaw and am waiting for him to get back
re fees.

Do you know any experts in North London (we are NW11) ?

Regards John

 

[alittlerespect]

First question - how far is NW11 from Colindale? The second question I am just asking myself is - do I really want to get involved, possibly not, however, if NW11 is not too far from Colindale then I would be happy to visit site and provide some expert advice, and because of the problems that you have been encountering there would be no charge.

Only issue now becomes one of making contact, on the assumption that you would wish to take up my offer?

Regards

 

[breezer]

how far is NW11 from Colindale?

clicky

 

[Johncp]

Thanks to you all for the advice and offers of assistance. We have onsite assistance from our builder, but as my posts indicate we need the right statements on paper from a RICS, in order to proceed with repairs. I now have a quote from Mr Burkenshaw FRICS and am looking to see if we should get him in - or whether the Met Office will flush out our problem by providing a couple of weeks of heavy rain .