Fire Door issues -Regulations?

[bricky48not]

Hello There, Coming to the end of my Renovation and installing Fire doors as requested by my Building Inspector, I have hit a couple of problems that I hope someone can help me with please. I'm handy...but not a carpenter. I got a joiner mate to fit the first one for me while I was away today getting other gear and these are the problems I got on my return.
I have been on the web trying to look at the Building Regs 2006 Appendix B -but either can't see or there is no info' on my issues
1) Firstly, I got intumescent seals with brushes to assist in dealing with smoke.
I know the intumescent seals must be continuous but this means the hinges have had to be mounted 'underneath' the seals therefore deeper than I have fitted hinges on non-Fire doors.
This has caused the door to get tight when closing and then a lot of pressure has to be exerted to get it to shut ...I think it's the brushes on the inside (hinge side) of the door.

2) Secondly, he fitted 25mm deep door stops which caused a problem because I had door handle sets with minimum sized latches which meant that when opening the door, the hand knuckle will get knocked 'cos the handle edge is nearly against the stop. I swapped the latches for the longest ones I could get, but my real question is....what is the minimum size of door stop that can be mounted on a Fire Door? The 25mm one fitted just looks bulky -probably because its 25mm x 32mm
Hope you can help, Many Thanks again

 

[gregers]

iirc the stops now do not need to be anything special,you can use the stops that come with any door lining kit.years back the stops needed to be glued and screwed.
as for the strip problem,er you dont run it under the butts,the correct way which is always ignored is to buy hinge pads that fit under neath the blade of the hinge so cut the strip upto the blade install pad rescrew hinge,also depending on the council any mortice lock needs a wrap aswell.

with the excess pressure of closing the door,imassuming the door closures you have fitted and snagging?this will stretch the hinge and over time may well break the pin of the hinge?

 

[bricky48not]

Thanks for that gregers, mmmm, the door is very neat and the carcass is square -so everything is well engineered, but I've been round to have a look at the door again and I think the reason for the door sticking as it closes, is that the leading edge of the door is catching the brush on the intumescent strip broadside on and then as I say, with a lot of excess force it forces over the brush and then the door sits snug. With constant use I worry that it will loosen or damage the brush. Maybe I should just replace all the intumescent strips with new ones that don't have the brush part?
Must be thick, just can't grasp what you mean about the butts. Are you saying that a pad is placed under the hinge on the carcass and that the intumescent strip can be cut to accommodate the hinge? and also not sure what you mean about the latch possibly needing a 'wrap'?

 

[gregers]

do you have door closures fitted?

read up a bit here,
http://www.ironmongerydirect.co.uk/...cent_pads_for_fd30_and_fd60_pack_of_24/865699


are the strips in the door or the frame/lining?
if in the lining then it may be possible to set the hinges back a little more in the frame.has the door got a leading edge?im thinking not as you say it snags as it closes.
perhaps it needs a bit more taken off the door.

changing the brush.that all depends on what has been recommended.
usually the smoothe type is fitted to areas that do not require the safe guards needed to stop the smoke from comming in,ie service doors.

post a piccy.

 

[bricky48not]

Thanks for the 'pads for the hinges' information gregers and No, I wasn't asked to fit door closers to any of the Fire doors.
The seals are rebated into the carcass.
The hinges have been set back a little, the joiner who fitted them is a decent bloke. As I say, it isn't the timber that is snagging i.e. the door isn't snagging on the carcass itself, so I don't think anything more needs taken off the door. It's definitely the leading edge of the door pushing against the whole length of the brushes set on the intumescent seal, until enough pressure is exerted to close the door which overcomes the resistance of the brush material.
That's a good point about recommendation. The Building Inspector did not tell me what type of intumescent strip to install. On purchasing it, I was asked "what colour, White or brown?" and then "with brushes or not?" ...I picked the seal with brushes for Safety for potential smoke problems.
I'm going to have to see the Council Building Regs dept, for advice on size of doorstop and is it ok to fit the seal without the brush addition.
Thanks again, but any more advice would be welcome.

 

[gregers]

well im surprised no mention of closures,seems a pointless exercise really.

no good if theres a fire if the doors are left open.

are the strips just slightly below rebate in frame??
or bang on flush,if so then the door requires a tickle off of it to get it to shut properly.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Closers are rarely required in domestic situations, usually only on flat entrance doors nowadays or if 3 storeys or more and even hen only new builds.

A 25mm stop is not required for domestic doors.

A cold smoke seal is unlikely to be required.

Can't comment further as don't know the extent of the layout/renovations.

 

[bricky48not]

yes , the strips have been mounted and are just below rebate gregers, I could take more off door edge. So you think it's ok to swap the intumescent strips for ones without the brush?

 

[bricky48not]

Hi freddymercurystwin, It's a 3 storey terraced house. open Ground floor with kitchen extension and an enclosed stairway in Open ground floor -thro' Fire door up to first floor (which has two bedrooms and shower room. Back along the landing to another staircase directly above the one below -up to the attic which has two bedrooms and a bathroom. Apart from door entrance into ground floor stairs, no doors on at top of lower staircase or attic/upstairs staircase.
Can you please enlarge on what you mean about "A cold smoke seal is unlikely to be required"
By the way the Building inspector told me to make all 8 doors fire doors which incensed the builder who was helping me who said that all doors to be made fire doors was unnecessary. I just went along with the BI -thinking better Safe than sorry!

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

So, it sounds like a fairly standard loft conversion on a standard two storey house and there is a door separating the kitchen from the stair case?

The cold smoke seal is the brush; this prevents smoke that is cold or warm from flowing through the gap. The fire seal is the intumescent strip.

You can get intumescent seals on their own and you can get intumescent seals that incorporate a brush.

Loft conversions require all habitable doors in the house to be fire doors usually bathrooms and cupboards can be excluded. You don’t need the brushes and you certainly don’t need closers.

There are various ways of upgrading existing doors to get them to comply which could have been investigated though these methods depend on the type and condition of the existing doors and can be just as expensive as replacing them.

The intumescent strips can go in the door or frame. If in the door they continue past the hinges. If in the frame they stop at the hinges. Technically intumescent patches are required behind the hinges but for a domestic install its overkill and the inspector won’t check. They are fitted to fill any minute gaps behind the hinge that may be left after some shoddy joinery.

Still not very clear as to why BC are involved.

 

[gregers]

i agree fmt,hence why i asked if closures are fitted.

why make it a fire door if it can be left open.defeats the object of what your trying to achieve.

brickey i cant say it its ok or not,thats something you will have to ask the bco who you are dealing with.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

why make it a fire door if it can be left open.defeats the object of what your trying to achieve.

Not really, the occupiers still have the ability to protect their homes and lives, the onus has simply moved solely to the occupier to do so. It doesn't take much effort to shut the kitchen door at night. The decision to remove closers was taken a few years ago for two reasons, one was to reduce the thousands of hospital visits per year for children's trapped fingers caused by closers and secondly it is well documented that many occupiers simply removed the closers as lets face it they're a right PITA as well as being a possible danger to little fingers.

Its only domestic situations where the closer requirements have been relaxed.

 

[gregers]

you seem more ofay with the regs then i am m8 but not arguing with you and understand about the removal of closers by home owners once they have been passed,call me a cynic but surely this must be an insurance cop out if they can prove after a fire that the doors were not closed?? ,but cant see the argument about fingers and closers.when i fit closers i make sure they close at around 8 seconds and that they DO not slam,
now trapping little fingers in doors in general,thats why a certain fast food outlet always install hinge covers to stop this from happening.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

There is nothing in law that makes a homeowner shut their doors even if they are fire doors. If they remove the closers that could be another issue.

Like it or not tens of thousands of kids are admitted to A&E with squished fingers, and a proportion leave with permanent damage. You may adjust your doors well, there are millions of doors and closers that are not child friendly and kids will be kids. Heck doors don't even need to have closers in order to squash a finger.

 

[bricky48not]

Thanks very much for all your help. Job is sorted! I have been restoring this house (and Garden) for 3 years. It is still under Building Control and therefore still under the jurisdiction of the BC, although not far away from a 'Completion Inspection'.
It is a 1875 Victorian 3 story house, taken back to brick and timber and now it is just like a new Build. After a discussion with the BC after digesting all your comments, he has instructed me to relax the size of the 38 mm backstops (door moulds) to 12.5 mm thickness. The 38mm ones came with the carcasses (kit) and when fitted were too near the knuckle on hand when using door handle -in fact I first tried longer latches, but still not good for a domestic house. Also he told me to swap the intumescent strips with brushes for strips without. I'm much happier. Again, Many Thanks.