Fitting a new 9.8 Kwh shower in Bathroom

[gardener1214388]

I am upgrading an old bathroom that had Bath, toilet, Cistern, C.H. Radiator and converting it to a Shower bathroom; no Bath.
Before any work is done; I investigate; make drawings of ALL plumbing; pipe routings and electric routings; taking photographs of inaccessible areas under the floor boards for reference; and on graph paper; to scale make drawings of proposed tiling and routings of various required facilities
Also make drawings of Existing situations to relate to including all wiring diagrams as existing again to relate to.
I am fitting a new 9.8 KWh electric shower.
I am using 10 mm Twin and Earth Grey Cable
I am using 6mm Single Earth cable.
I am using a Double Pole 50 amp ceiling pull switch with neon and on/off flag and pull cord
I am replacing all copper hot and cold water 15mm pipes with new.
I am using full bore isolating valves to isolate all hot and cold water to the bathroom; screw driver on/off and one isolating lever full bore valve immediately near the electric shower, also isolating valves at cistern and hot and cold water to basin.
I am fitting a new Basin, Toilet with Cistern and Resin Shower Tray on legs.
All Waste is ABS plastic including replacement 110mm soil connector to rear of Toilet Pan.
All 6mm Earth wires to be hidden inside removable pipe casings.

Questions:

1) - I understand that Edition 17 Electrics does not require Earth cables to be fitted to the Shower, basin or Toilet; although I will be doing this using Earth clamps. Is this still Acceptable and safe ?

2) - The 10 mm cable will run direct to the Consumer unit.
The 6mm Earth cable will run direct from the Consumer unit direct to the Bathroom connected eqopotentially to the Basin, Toilet, Cistern, Shower, centrally heated Radiator The Electrically filament heated Towel Rail will be connected direct into a F.C.U fused connection unit. Is this Acceptable and safe.

I am not connecting the cable to the Consumer Unit; an approved Electrician will be used to fit the necessary breakers etc and new Consumer board and to certify the work carried out.

2) - The main question; is, should this 6mm earth cable be routed direct to the consumer board and NOT connected to any local earthed junction box; I understand that it should route direct. Is this correct.

 

[EFLImpudence]

1) - I understand that Edition 17 Electrics does not require Earth cables to be fitted to the Shower, basin or Toilet; although I will be doing this using Earth clamps. Is this still Acceptable and safe ?

You are confusing Earthing - to operate the Protective device in the event of a fault.
and Bonding - to reduce potential difference between parts in the event of a fault until the protective device operates.

The shower must be Earthed - by the Circuit Protective Conductor of the cable.

Supplementary Bonding is not a Yes or No answer because of the description of parts.
Tests must be carried out to determine if it is required or should NOT be fitted.

Supplementary Bonding may be omitted if
All circuits in the location are 30mA RCD protected AND
All disconnection times are met AND
All Main Bonding is in place and satisfactory.
It is not detrimental to still fit SB in this case.

2) - The 10 mm cable will run direct to the Consumer unit.

Ok.

The 6mm Earth cable will run direct from the Consumer unit direct to the Bathroom connected eqopotentially to the Basin, Toilet, Cistern, Shower, centrally heated Radiator The Electrically filament heated Towel Rail will be connected direct into a F.C.U fused connection unit. Is this Acceptable and safe.

Supplementary Equipotential Bonding does not run to the consumer unit.
Bonding connects together the Exposed- and Extraneous-Conductive-Parts which are accessible in the location (bathroom).
4mm² is adequate.

I am not connecting the cable to the Consumer Unit; an approved Electrician will be used to fit the necessary breakers etc and new Consumer board and to certify the work carried out.

Then he will have to supervise and inspect the work throughout.

2) - The main question; is, should this 6mm earth cable be routed direct to the consumer board and NOT connected to any local earthed junction box; I understand that it should route direct. Is this correct.

No.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Gardner, your detailed post misses out three essential letters - RCD - is there one that will be associated with the connections to the shower?

 

[gardener1214388]

Gardner, your detailed post misses out three essential letters - RCD - is there one that will be associated with the connections to the shower?

Thanks for the comment; yes the electrician will be sorting this including all new consumer board work; a 30 milliamp RCD

 

[gardener1214388]

Gardner, your detailed post misses out three essential letters - RCD - is there one that will be associated with the connections to the shower?

Thanks for the constructive comments; I understand that the Twin and Earth 10mm cable that is to be connected to the Shower must go direct to the Consumer board; it'll be fitted by the electrician including 30 milliamp RCD on its own circuit.

 

[gardener1214388]

Gardner, your detailed post misses out three essential letters - RCD - is there one that will be associated with the connections to the shower?

Thanks for the comments.
Regarding the 6mm single Earth cable; should this should be connected to Basin H & C, Cistern CW, Shower CW supply copper pipes to bond them all; if so......should this cable be routed direct to the consumer board or connected to an existing; for example Junction box earth wire.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Regarding the 6mm single Earth cable;

What single Earth cable?

should this should be connected to Basin H & C, Cistern CW, Shower CW supply copper pipes to bond them all; if so......should this cable be routed direct to the consumer board or connected to an existing; for example Junction box earth wire.

If you mean a BONDING conductor - IT DEPENDS.

It's not a question of yes or no because it's this or that.

Did you read my previous reply?

 

[Taylortwocities]

You have already been advised about this!

Supplementary Bonding may be omitted if
All circuits in the location are 30mA RCD protected AND
All disconnection times are met AND
All Main Bonding is in place and satisfactory.

So, if all circuits in the bathroom are RCD protected and the other conditions are met, then BONDING is not required (are they?)

BONDING is not the same as EARTHING. You do not run a separate cable back to the consumer unit. Your electrician will know about this, the size of the BONDING conductor, and iif it is necessary in the first place.

 

[gardener1214388]

You have already been advised about this!

Supplementary Bonding may be omitted if
All circuits in the location are 30mA RCD protected AND
All disconnection times are met AND
All Main Bonding is in place and satisfactory.

So, if all circuits in the bathroom are RCD protected and the other conditions are met, then BONDING is not required (are they?)

BONDING is not the same as EARTHING. You do not run a separate cable back to the consumer unit. Your electrician will know about this, the size of the BONDING conductor, and iif it is necessary in the first place.

Thanks for you comments.............

So to summarise..........................?

The 9.8 Kwh Shower is connected via 10mm Twin & Earth wire to D.P. 50 amp ceiling pull cord switch with neon and flag and 10mm cable is then taken direct to 30ma RCD and then to Consumer Board ?

References: Electricians Guide 17th Edition Second Edition page 107. fig 5.14
supplementary bonding in a Bathroom to shower cw pipe basin hw cw cistern cw towel rail C Htd bath hw cw Shower tray electric fan shaver/light point, I see no reference though as to where this "Earth Bonding" should be taken to; does it go to a junction box 2.5mm earth terminal to continue the earth circuit ?

For Reference: Mike Lawrence's Book (2001) LIGHTING AND WIRING page 108 Electric Showers states: It is essential that the supply pipework to the shower unit is cross bonded to Earth. This means fitting an earth clamp on the pipe and running a "4mm" single core Earth cable BACK TO THE MAIN EARTHING connection at the Consumer Unit.

Question here is; the shower 100 cable twin & Earth; this earth cable is routed inside the shower to the earth terminal and also continues marked as an "Inlet Earth Wire" onto the C.W supply metal fitting; so in effect would provide earth bonding; so should a Cross bonding earth wire be also clamped onto that CW copper feed pipe and in turn cross bonded to cistern basin etc and then be connected to say a junction box mains 2.5mm Earth terminal, but NOT routed direct to the Consumer Unit.

I look forward to your comments.

 

[EFLImpudence]

The 9.8 Kwh Shower is connected via 10mm Twin & Earth wire to D.P. 50 amp ceiling pull cord switch with neon and flag and 10mm cable is then taken direct to 30ma RCD and then to Consumer Board ?

To a fuse or MCB in the board, yes,

References: Electricians Guide 17th Edition Second Edition page 107. fig 5.14
supplementary bonding in a Bathroom to shower cw pipe basin hw cw cistern cw towel rail C Htd bath hw cw Shower tray electric fan shaver/light point, I see no reference though as to where this "Earth Bonding" should be taken to; does it go to a junction box 2.5mm earth terminal to continue the earth circuit ?

BONDING connects parts together. It does not go anywhere.

For Reference: Mike Lawrence's Book (2001) LIGHTING AND WIRING page 108 Electric Showers states: It is essential that the supply pipework to the shower unit is cross bonded to Earth.

This term is wrong and means nothing.

This means fitting an earth clamp on the pipe and running a "4mm" single core Earth cable BACK TO THE MAIN EARTHING connection at the Consumer Unit.

WRONG.

Question here is; the shower 100 cable twin & Earth; this earth cable is routed inside the shower to the earth terminal and also continues marked as an "Inlet Earth Wire" onto the C.W supply metal fitting; so in effect would provide earth bonding;

No, that will provide EARTHING.
I have never seen a shower with such, if I understand you correctly.

so should a Cross bonding earth wire be also clamped onto that CW copper feed pipe and in turn cross bonded to cistern basin etc and then be connected to say a junction box mains 2.5mm Earth terminal, but NOT routed direct to the Consumer Unit.

I appreciate you may not fully understand but it does seem as if you are not reading the replies in which case you should leave it to the electrician,

Supplementary Bonding is not a Yes or No answer because of the description of parts.
Tests must be carried out to determine if it is required or should NOT be fitted.

Supplementary Bonding may be omitted if
All circuits in the location are 30mA RCD protected AND
All disconnection times are met AND
All Main Bonding is in place and satisfactory.
It is not detrimental to still fit SB in this case.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I may have been unfair to you as you are reading a book clearly written by someone who does not know what he is talking about.

Throw it away.

 

[EFLImpudence]

BONDING connects together parts which, in the event of a fault, may carry a high current so that there is no, or acceptably low, resistance between them resulting in little potential difference between them so that you will not receive a shock should you touch two of them simultaneously.

Whether this supplementary bonding is required depends on a number of factors which are determined by measurements and cannot be answered on a forum by asking "Should I bond this or that pipe?".

 

[AndyPRK]

And is it true to say under the latest 17th regulations, as long as the bathroom is protected by RCD, you don't require bonding in the bathroom?

 

[JohnW2]

And is it true to say under the latest 17th regulations, as long as the bathroom is protected by RCD, you don't require bonding in the bathroom?

Provided that, as well as everything in the room being RCD protected, two or three other conditions are also satisfied (which they will be in most installations) then yes, you are correct that 'supplementary bonding' in a bathroom is no longer required.

Kind Regards, John

 

[gardener1214388]

And is it true to say under the latest 17th regulations, as long as the bathroom is protected by RCD, you don't require bonding in the bathroom?

Provided that, as well as everything in the room being RCD protected, two or three other conditions are also satisfied (which they will be in most installations) then yes, you are correct that 'supplementary bonding' in a bathroom is no longer required.

Kind Regards, John

Out of curiosity; if bonding is fitted; does this have any detrimental or negative effect just by trying to be over safe.