Fitting replacement timber windows

[thelastgizmo]

Thanks to those who answered my previous thread. Fitting windows is a new thing for me. I have some Crittal metal windows to replace and am doing the first one on Saturday. I have had the new timber frames made 10mm undersized (5mm all round). I am assuming I need spacers (wedges) all round to centralise the frame. What do I need to look for when I'm out shopping (I'll ask the frame company if they can provide). I've also read that a lot of fitters cut their own and using plastics ones is frowned apon. But whatever is easiest I figure.

Also what do I need for the DGU to sit on in the frame? There are lots of firm plastic foam rectangles stuck on the DGUs as separators and they are exactly the right depth and thickness. Can I use these or do I need a firm plastic spacer? I've been told to use double sided glazing tape (2mm) as the frames are externally glazed.

I figure that the hardest job is getting the old windows out. They have been in there for 50 years.

 

[crank39]

Use plastic frame packers to centralise your frames, fix them and if you have room a squirt of foam, if you have a fair few windows to fit then i recommend investing in a foam gun and screw in foam cans, much more controlable than the diy foam can which either work or they don't and when they do you seem to get foam everywhere

http://www.screwfix.com/p/glazing-packers-24mm-225pcs/96089

http://www.screwfix.com/search.do?fh_search=foam+gun

If you do use a foam gun remember to close the valve on the back of the gun after use if your gonna leave it for some time, if you let air into the tube nozzle the foam in there will harden and ruin your new gun, shut the valve to make it air tight, no need to unscrew the foam can and blast cleaner through the gun unless the foam can is empty

As for glazing, i've found with timber rebates that they aren't deep enough and if you allow a 5mm gap around the dgu then you will see the edge of the spacer bar, the rebates and the beads don't cover so i always measured them as tight as possible, normally only deducting 5mm from the opening instead of 10mm as is normal for pvc say.

Sit the glass on the frame packers, use a combination of various sizes to centralise the unit, if your units are 24mm which is the minimum requirement then use 24mm packers and make sure both panes of the dgu are fully supported by the packer, don't use the transit pads, they'll squish down in no time and won't support the glass, when the sun gets on the glass one pane may slide down thus breaking the seal and the unit will soon steam up.

You can bed the units on clear silicone or 1 or 2mm glazing tape, if you go the silicone route then be sure to use glazing silicone, this won't attack the seal of the unit and cause the unit to steam prematurely

As for getting them out, its been a while since i ripped crittal out but i remember putting a lump hammer through the hinges to remove the openers and then crow barring the steel frame out of the timber subframe glass still in situ then just sawing that frame into bits and folding it in on itself

 

[thelastgizmo]

Thanks for that Crank. Are you sure about not having to shoot cleaner through the foam gun after use? Screwfix has the gun and foam but no cleaner. Neither has another supplier. Can only get it for about £11 a tin. A bit more than £4 from Screwfix......but if it saves a gun it's cheap!

With regards to fitting the frames does the sill sit on the brickwork or do I use packing pieces underneath? Also do I need to put in a damp proof membrane between wall and sill?

 

[crank39]

Its listed in screwfix and if they haven't got it in tell em to order it in for you, you'll have it next day or maybe the day after that

I never blast cleaner through mine, so long as the valve is shut off you can leave it with the can on, if you unscrew a half empty can to clean the gun out for instance what will you then do with can thats going to set around the nozzle, much better to leave them together even if the can is empty, then when you need it again unscrew the empty and put a new on straight away

Pack the window right up to the lintel or bricks and point or seal underneath, you can if you want to put some dpc under the frame, its good practice to coat the wood underneath and any cut ends with clear wood preserver too

 

[thelastgizmo]

Thanks again Crank. I went to Screwfix for the gun and foam but they said they had no cleaner and they couldn't order it as it looked as if they will not be getting any more in. A bit daft selling foam and gun but nothing to clean it with. I'll keep the can and gun connected up and get some cleaner online. I'm putting the windows in in slow time (one every weekend) so I'm sure I won't get through one can this weekend.

I've already gone over the hidden parts of the frame and exterior with Sadolin Classic

 

[Gazman16]

I never use foam cleaner on my guns. The cleaner is sticky and gums up the guns more than anything.

As crank said just always keep a foam can attached and give the gun a quick squirt once a month or so and it will be fine. I find even the cheaper £15 guns will last for 2-3 years this way.

You may also want to consider masking taping the frames and brickwork if your not experienced with using the guns. A few quids worth of tape and a few minutes taping can save hours of scraping and scrubbing the foam especially from brickwork.

 

[joe-90]

If your windows are wooden - what are you getting them made up undersize for? You simply plane them down as required for a perfect fit.

 

[thelastgizmo]

I wasn't sure what the aperture sizes were. The edges of the frames are covered in render and I could not remove all of that on the upstairs windows without hiring a scafold tower and I only want to do that once. So I chipped away a small area that I could reach from inside and measured at one point only. As the building is 1800 and something I couldn't guarantee they would be square!. Also the guy next door had replaced all his windows and had recommend I undersized. More experienced fitters would do different I'm sure. I'll find out tomorrow just how square the apertures are.

Thanks for all the advice from everyone.

 

[crank39]

More experienced fitters would do different I'm sure.

Nope, we measure 10mm under, ignore Joe he's a jack of all trades master of none!

 

[joe-90]

Don't be stupid. It's only that plastic rubbish that gets measured short and bodged with a plastic strip. An old time joiner would turn in his grave. Ignore Crank - he's part of that sh*t uPVC industry, He knows nothing about joinery.

 

[crank39]

Don't offer advice on an subject you clearly know nothing about joe

Jog on yoof!

 

[joe-90]

You get your plastic wedges out and bung your frame sealent in. What a fookin mess. I work in the villages on listed buildings, you work the council estates. Stick with what you know mate. Ugly, lifeless plastic.

 

[crank39]

Joe i've spent years trying to work your trade out and haven't been able to, you spend time on every section offering advice in fact i wouldn't even call it advice, more like views.

You can pretend to be anything you like when your behind the keyboard joe, next week you'll be a expert plumber or roofer i'm sure. Its no secret what my background is, pretty easy to work out but who says i fit windows for a living, i don't even have a van but a company car

I won't tell you the name of the company i work for but they're part of a multi million pound group

http://www.kinnell-holdings.co.uk

Dare to tell us who you work for?

 

[joe-90]

I'm self employed. I restore and renovate period properties. Sometimes it's one that I own, and other times for clients. I can repair/restore any part of any building. I don't do plastic. I only work with timber. I can also do leaded lights too. I also build timber/brick/glass garden room/orangeries. I do lots of stuff.

 

[thelastgizmo]

Gentlemen. Thank you for your information. I put the first window in yesterday. SOme observations. The window only just fitted in the aperture width wise. If I had not allowed for a 10mm clearance I would have had a lot of resizing to do. As I only have hand tools this could have taken a long time. I had 8mm cleanance for the height. The aperture sides were quite irregular and this wasn't evident until I took the old window out (along with the surrounding render). Also I noticed that by jacking the frame up so it touched the lintel, the internal window sill did not fit in the grove in the lower frame rail. But at least I did not have a gap at the top inside.

Incidentally I used the plastic spacers when trial fitting the frame but used handcut wooden ones when I screwed the frame in (one either side of the screw to support the frame). I had previously cut various width timber on my bandsaw.

I can see both sides of the arguments voiced earlier and I am a firm timber fan but plastic has it's place (I have them in my house!). Tailor making frames in apertures that are regular and entirely visible is a laudible aim. However I am installing these in remote location with hand tools (apart from a mains powered drill). Leaving a bit of clearance around the frame has worked ok for me and saved me a lot of time. Time will tell if I think the same after the next three windows (two of which are upper storey).