Fixed Appliance Isolation

[onslow]

Hi Guys, I'm new to this forum so I hope I'm posting in the right place

I am a fire and security engineer and have a few issues on safety with the company I'm working for and want some confirmation before I bring the matters up with management.

I'm coming across external CCTV camera's with mains present within the housings for the 12/24V PSU's but the spur units are inside the building, it is my understanding that such a camera is a fixed appliance and should have a means of isolation within 1 metre of the device?

Also I am finding that this company use through crimp connectors to join mains flex's, (again without isolation beeing in sight) though the connectors are insulated they tend to join the cable just using 1 end, the other end of the connector is open and the live connector is exposed at about 3mm inside.

Just need someone to confirm before refusing to work on this stuff.

Thanks

Steve

 

[ricicle]

There is no specific regulation regarding the distance of isolation although externally in the IP boxwould have been a good idea. The crimp issue is no big problem.
In essence I don't think it's worth bothering with, especially seeing as anyone working on the system should be competant anyway.

 

[Iggifer]

I'm coming across external CCTV camera's with mains present within the housings for the 12/24V PSU's but the spur units are inside the building, it is my understanding that such a camera is a fixed appliance and should have a means of isolation within 1 metre of the device?

There is mains into the housing for the housing for the PSU (which is inside) but then presumably the external cameras only take 12/24vdc anyway?

If this is the case, then I wouldn't worry.

And as for the crimps, compared to some work by CCTV companies I've come a cross, that sounds positively good. If found a 12v camera feed that had been extended, and the cables just twisted together in a ceiling void (found cos it was intermittently shorting itself), an IP rated camera mounted on an IP adaptable box, but the conduit entry to the back was attrocious and about 26mm instead of 20mm, so they had just filled everything with silicone (which didn't work)

I've also seen 12 cameras plugged into one twin socket outlet: comprising of 2 x 4 way, and 3 x 3 way adapters (low current I know, but what an eyesore!!)

 

[onslow]

I'm coming across external CCTV camera's with mains present within the housings for the 12/24V PSU's but the spur units are inside the building, it is my understanding that such a camera is a fixed appliance and should have a means of isolation within 1 metre of the device?

There is mains into the housing for the housing for the PSU (which is inside) but then presumably the external cameras only take 12/24vdc anyway?

If this is the case, then I wouldn't worry.

And as for the crimps, compared to some work by CCTV companies I've come a cross, that sounds positively good. If found a 12v camera feed that had been extended, and the cables just twisted together in a ceiling void (found cos it was intermittently shorting itself), an IP rated camera mounted on an IP adaptable box, but the conduit entry to the back was attrocious and about 26mm instead of 20mm, so they had just filled everything with silicone (which didn't work)

I've also seen 12 cameras plugged into one twin socket outlet: comprising of 2 x 4 way, and 3 x 3 way adapters (low current I know, but what an eyesore!!)

Thanks for the reply, just to clarify, the 12V PSU within the housing has failed and I need to change it but cannot find a means to isolate the mains, no spur and no breakers marked up. The issue with the crimps are they are jointing mains that is sitting in suspended ceilings, under desks etc, only 1 side of the crimp is used leaving the other end open, and yes, this company has no idea what connector block is, twisted joints on ELV is the only thing they know lol

 

[bhm1712]

Hi Guys, I'm new to this forum so I hope I'm posting in the right place

I am a fire and security engineer and have a few issues on safety with the company I'm working for and want some confirmation before I bring the matters up with management.

I'm coming across external CCTV camera's with mains present within the housings for the 12/24V PSU's but the spur units are inside the building, it is my understanding that such a camera is a fixed appliance and should have a means of isolation within 1 metre of the device?

Also I am finding that this company use through crimp connectors to join mains flex's, (again without isolation beeing in sight) though the connectors are insulated they tend to join the cable just using 1 end, the other end of the connector is open and the live connector is exposed at about 3mm inside.

Just need someone to confirm before refusing to work on this stuff.

Thanks

Steve

Thanks for the reply, just to clarify, the 12V PSU within the housing has failed and I need to change it but cannot find a means to isolate the mains, no spur and no breakers marked up.

I thought the spur units or FCU's where inside?

 

[bhm1712]

if you dont know which spurs feed which cameras the only thing to do is to isolate each one until you lose the supply to the camera you need to work on. Its a pain and you will probably turn other things off and get some people moaning about it, but unfortunately thats always going to be the case if stuff isnt correctly marked up!

Can the cables not be traced through from the outside to the inside?

 

[ricicle]

I thought you meant that the crimped joints were in an enclosure. They should not be left un-enclosed in a void.

 

[OwainDIYer]

I'm coming across external CCTV camera's with mains present within the housings for the 12/24V PSU's but the spur units are inside the building, it is my understanding that such a camera is a fixed appliance and should have a means of isolation within 1 metre of the device?

AIUI that's for heaters or motors and is required for emergency switching. Switching for isolation/maintenance can be remote from the appliance.

Most FCUs can be locked off by withdrawing the fuse carrier and padlocking it - but that is only single-pole isolation.

Any joints in cables not in a proper enclosure with strain relief is a basic breach of electrical safety and in a workplace the Electrical Safety at Work Regulations will apply. You have to consider your own safety and if you are finding such things you are probably justified in locking off the main switch until you have fully inspected the work area for these atrocities rather than your fingers coming across something tingly in a dark corner.

 

[Simon35]

I'm coming across external CCTV camera's with mains present within the housings for the 12/24V PSU's but the spur units are inside the building, it is my understanding that such a camera is a fixed appliance and should have a means of isolation within 1 metre of the device?

AIUI that's for heaters or motors and is required for emergency switching. Switching for isolation/maintenance can be remote from the appliance.

Most FCUs can be locked off by withdrawing the fuse carrier and padlocking it - but that is only single-pole isolation.

Any joints in cables not in a proper enclosure with strain relief is a basic breach of electrical safety and in a workplace the Electrical Safety at Work Regulations will apply. You have to consider your own safety and if you are finding such things you are probably justified in locking off the main switch until you have fully inspected the work area for these atrocities rather than your fingers coming across something tingly in a dark corner.

There is no blanket requirement for local isolation for motors and heaters, perfectly acceptable to have a remote, lockable, means of isolation.

 

[plugwash]

Also I am finding that this company use through crimp connectors to join mains flex's, (again without isolation beeing in sight) though the connectors are insulated they tend to join the cable just using 1 end, the other end of the connector is open and the live connector is exposed at about 3mm inside.

Is this inside an enclosure? if so then I don't really see a big problem. If not then IMO it should be suitablly enclosed.

 

[Simon35]

Also I am finding that this company use through crimp connectors to join mains flex's, (again without isolation beeing in sight) though the connectors are insulated they tend to join the cable just using 1 end, the other end of the connector is open and the live connector is exposed at about 3mm inside.

Is this inside an enclosure? if so then I don't really see a big problem. If not then IMO it should be suitablly enclosed.

Normal requirement would be that terminals to be touchproof in an enclosure, IP2X...sounds like this is.

 

[SimonH2]

Sets me thinking about my last place, and one particular camera ...

When it was put up, inside was open to the warehouse area, and the metalclad FCU was bolted to a purlin. Then the offices got extended, but an access hatch was left in the internal plasterboard wall (it was in a boiler room). Then someone came round and closed off the hatches for various reasons - either aesthetics in the meeting room, or fire containment in the boiler room. So now that FCU is inaccessible behind a wall - and I know that there is no-one left working there who knows about it (the sparky who might have been consulted has retired, I've left, and the maintenance guys have all left).
And no, I'm fairly certain there'll be no way of finding it on the distribution board, or even know which board feeds it !

 

[RF Lighting]

We have ways of finding out which circuit something is fed from.

I have a fuse finder which is ace, coupled with a bit of detective work and some tricks of the trade and I can find most things.

 

[onslow]

We have ways of finding out which circuit something is fed from.

I have a fuse finder which is ace, coupled with a bit of detective work and some tricks of the trade and I can find most things.

Been in the trade 1971 (15th edition), started installing fire & security in 1985 and didnt bother with 16th then 17th edition...to much like hard work lol.

The problem with the site in question is its a big retail/industrial park and the cctv belongs to the landlord, the mains and other cabling for the camera's are in tenants units and they wont let me start knocking breakers off during their business hours and the company I work for wont pay for out of hours, cant access the hieght of the purlings were the cables come through due to stock/racking etc....lol I invented alot of them tricks of the trade thanks for taking the time to reply.