Front garden lights advice please

[5teves]

Hi,

My next home improvement will be to install some lighting in the front garden.

Plan is to install 4 wall lights and some ground lights around the plants.

I have a tripple switch. And plan on using as such.

Switch one will control the two of the lights by the front door (one on either side)

Switch 2 will control two lights ( one on either end of the house)

Switch 3 will control ground lights.

Now thats all straight forward as i can see.

But i wanted to complicate it by introducing a pir sensor for the wall lights, for both switch one and switch 2.

Is it possible for me use just the one pir sensor to control both sets of the wall lights and still be able to change switch any circuit to stay on permanently?

For example,

Switch one is on permanently by overriding the switch (turn on/off couple times) and switch 2 can still operate via pir.

Please can one of you smart sparks help me out with this, thankyou in advance

 

[chivers67]

If you use Two Way Switching so when the Lights are off & The PIR is on it would work though you'll have to link the Lights up with a Live coming off the PIR to each Light you want it to control.

 

[ericmark]

Yes it is possible, as to if you can do it for price your willing to pay, that is another question. You don't say where in the UK you live, the Bladgon system in Wales gets around the Part P problem, in England garden no longer a special location, not a clue about Scotland.

Clearly one can program a PLC or other unit to do all sorts when you like, however I would assume that would be over budget. So it is down to budget, I know Energenie for example have smart switches, sockets, and PIR sensors which can use IFTTT (if this then that) protocol so the limit is the person writing the program.

But using simple relays and writing a truth table one can do the same thing. Maybe even simple switches. So three position switch, centre off one way PIR other way permanent on seems to be what you want. May even be an option with the Bladgon system.

 

[sparxxxx]

As long as both lights on same circuit, you need the PIR to switch a 2 pole relay that would link to the light 1 and 2 switch lines, or fit another PIR. With PIR/PIR's tripped you would not be able to turn lights OFF, if not happy with that, fit another switch to turn PIR/PIR's ON/OFF - key switch possibly.

Ground lights - if you mean flush with ground surface you will eventually get water ingress, and a consequent mess

Edit - see EFL's drawing of 333rockys idea, and add a switch (key switch?) to L to isolate in the event of a fault, that's the way to do it.

 

[bernardgreen]

An over ride OFF function could be added by as switch in the Live to the lamp(s)

 

[333rocky333]

no need for relays use grid switches, use two position centre off, feed each switch from both the pir And a permanent live, then the other terminal use as the output to the light
you need a pir with a Neutral that works with no load connected.
position 1 lights work via pir
position centre lights off
possition 2 lights permanently on

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Clearly one can program a PLC or other unit to do all sorts when you like, however I would assume that would be over budget. So it is down to budget, I know Energenie for example have smart switches, sockets, and PIR sensors which can use IFTTT (if this then that) protocol so the limit is the person writing the program.

PLC - way over the top for such!

Smart Switches + Smart PIR + Alexa will make that very easy to implement, if you have wifi and it will stretch to the switch + PIR locations.

 

[EFLImpudence]

As Rocky said:

Or you could just use two-way switches if you don't need the permanently off option.

 

[bernardgreen]

Rocky and EFL have got it right, ( I am probably addicted to relays ).

Dare I mention the ability to have full isolation ( Live and Neutral ) of outside lights.

If there is damage/ water ingress then protective devices ( RCD and/or MCB ) may operate on a Neutral Earth fault and remove power from circuits inside the house,

 

[5teves]

Wow, thankyou very much guys a tonne of information here.

Unfortunately for me though i might just be out of my depth with it.

Ive spoken with the Electrian and tbh he didnt seem too keen on the idea either. Said it was complicated.
And also suggested i would need 2 pir sensors , 1 for each switch, and didn't seem to think 1 sensor can work for both switches aaaand keeping the two switches from functioning individually at the same time.

Is it really that complicated?

I mean the cables are already in place for the 4 wall lights. I anticipated the need for some extra cabling for the pir to work the way i wanted but not sure its going to be feeible if it involved a lot of work.

In laymens terms i want the pir sensor to work for both sets of lights on switch 1 and 2. And i want to place the sensor just by the front door.

But i wanted to retain the option to turn one set of lights to be switched on permanently when required whilst the other set can be on pir sensor when required both at the same time.

And of course when needed id like all to lights to light up on the pir sensor. Its a personal choice i just perfer the idea of a sensor to light all the lights up together when someone comes up to the door.

 

[sparxxxx]

Ive spoken with the Electrian and tbh he didnt seem too keen on the idea either. Said it was complicated.

It needs thinking about, but is not complicated for an electrican, and 333rocky has given the simple solution as sketched by EFL.

Have you looked at the previous posts.

 

[333rocky333]

If the wirings in, all you need extra is an extra cable from the Pir to the switch, and power including a neutral to the Pir, if you have a Neutral at the switch you can use that for the Pir.
You can even use your existing 3 gang switch as Efli suggests but there will be no Permanent off facility/

 

[ericmark]

As others have pointed out some of my ideas are way OTT, however that was my point, and you have to decide how far to go. Back in the days before LED there was good reason for PIR and timers, but the LED uses so little power, what is saved using PIR and timers is not really worth the cost of the buying and fitting the PIR's and timers.

OK I am not pleased that a neighbour has a pair of lights running all night so I can't watch the stars from my house. However as far as cost goes, switching the lights off saves so little, and PIR's and timers don't last for ever, so money wise a simple plug in time clock is likely the best idea.

But although I know that, my outside light is controlled by a smart socket. I know it does not make sense, but I have still done it.

 

[5teves]

Thankyou so much to you all, lots of helpfull advice, and much appreciated.

Im womdering if anyone can recommend which sensors to use?

Also is there a way altenative way to wire a dusk till dawn sensor so that it only starts to work when its switched on?

I recall many years ago we had a outldoor pir light which only started to work on pir when it was manually switch on, and when we wanted it to remain on we simply switched it on of multiple times.

 

[endecotp]

Also is there a way altenative way to wire a dusk till dawn sensor so that it only starts to work when its switched on?
.

Yes. Connect the switch in series with the supply to the PIR.