Gas Flue Under a Window

[geezer466]

I have a Brazilla baxi gas fire fitted to an outside wall in one of my hotel bedrooms. The flue for it passes through the wall and vents approximately 400mm under the window (which can be opened).

This fire is not is use and the gas it turned off at the appliance (gas tap).

Annual gas safety checks took place this morning and the fitter has placed a unsafe appliance sticker upon the fire. Because he argues CO can be drawn in the open window from the flue.

I am using a different firm as my usual one is no longer in business

Now this appliance has passed previous numerous gas safety inspections with no problems.

Has the law recently changed I was always under the impression so long as the flue was at least 300mm away from a building opening then it was ok.

Is perhaps the inspecting firm 'trying to rustle up' some business for itself in these difficult times?

In addition there is a gas fire that vents into a chimney in my domestic accommodation that has been condemned due to a 'cracked heat exchanger'.

If I wanted to check this what would I look for?

To be honest this fire is old and I will replace it anyway but I simply want to make sure I am not being spun a line.

Many thanks for an considered replies. They will certainly help my consideration if I use this engineer again.

 

[gigz]

Check M.I.s and you'll find you are right its 300mm

 

[namsag]

Yep 300 and if it was less than this it would only be not to current standard so not a cut off.
What fire do you have not by any chance a robinson willey firegem.

Take the radiants out and look at the metal behind them if its showing signs of cracks and splits then its a cut off

 

[gasacs]

I would also ask him how CO is entering the building because if it is burning correct it will only give off CO2 + water vapour..

 

[geezer466]

Yep 300 and if it was less than this it would only be not to current standard so not a cut off.
What fire do you have not by any chance a robinson willey firegem.

Take the radiants out and look at the metal behind them if its showing signs of cracks and splits then its a cut off

Thanks for that looks like the engineer gave a good call on that one.

It is a Robinson Willey Firegem 22 Deluxe. I reckon about 15 - 20 years old. (I inherited it with the property).

By your guesswork I suspect this may well be a factor with these appliances?
Still 20 years ain't bad is it?

What sort of ballpark am I looking for for fitting costs for when I go up the town in a day or two and source a new one?

I would be looking for something around the same size so not to make the job to big with the flue.

 

[namsag]

Not a bad guess eh
firegems always rot and crack we used to change the fire box, took about half hour but i doubt the parts are avialable now and its prob 20 years which is not bad for a wee fire like that.

They still make them and are now firegem visa cost about 220 quid .
WWW.UK-PLUMBING.COM
As for fitting cost all depends what the norm is around your way but i would imagine its a straight forward fire to point using chrome pipe and tap with no concealed connection .

 

[doitall]

From the Brazilla manual all models are the same.

3.2 Clearances
1. The appliance must be fitted on a vertical flat noncombustible
wall. Any combustible wall coverings should be
removed from within the area of the outer case.
2. Internally the appliance must not be fitted under
a shelf or sill which has a projection of more than
150mm (6 in).
3. Curtains or a shelf must not be closer than
140mm (5 ½ in) (F 5 & 5S), 89mm (3 ½ in) (F 8S) from top
of outer case.
4. The bottom of the outer case must be a minimum of
72mm (2 7/8 in) from the floor. Subject to this minimum
dimension it is recommended that the appliance is fitted as
close to the floor as possible for optimum distribution of heat.
5. Minimum side clearance form any wall or fixed furniture to
the outer case is:
Left hand side: 45mm (1 ¾ in)
Right hand side: 57mm (2 ¼ in)


3.3 Flue Position
1. The siting of the balanced flue terminal must meet the
following conditions:
a. Where the flue terminal of the appliance is beneath any
opening (that is to say, any part of a window capable of
being opened, or any ventilation inlet or similar opening) no
part of the terminal shall be within 300mm (1 ft), measured
vertically from the bottom of the opening.

 

[geezer466]

Have now had a bit of feedback from the Inspection firm about this now.

I queried the distance by letter stating the top of the flue was 430mm below the window opening and asked if the regulations or best practice had changed recently.

The letter I received says

'To answer your question regarding the the tolerance from where the flue terminates to the base of the window, the manufacturers guidelines do state the minimum safe distance is 300mm, however CORGI regulations state that it is the decision of the on-site engineer to deem whether the appliance is safe to use. In our engineer's opinion the opening window is still to close to the flue to allow the flue gases to disperse safely'.

Is this correct? Does the engineer have licence to cut off in this regard?

I ask as I need to have quite a bit of gas work done including supply and fit of a new boiler and want to make sure I get someone in to do the work who is not out to scam me.....

 

[gas4you]

MI's always take precedent, and not without firm evidence of a problem.

An engineer on site can only turn off an appliance with the 'responsible persons' permission. If you refused permission he would have to call NG in and let them handle it.

Only TRANSCO (NG) have the legal power to turn anything off without permission.

 

[doitall]

If the appliance is to Manufactures instructions, and in good working order, I would challenge anyone to turn it off.

At best he could issue a Not to Current Standards, if that was the case, which is isn't.

In my opinion the engineer has overstepped his responsibilities, perhaps to generate work. You could/should confirm mt opinion by contacting Corgi, followed by Trading Standards.

I feel sure my colleagues in the CC will have something to say later as well.

 

[namsag]

There has to be some sort of evidence that something may not be right such as staining, appliance starting to fall off wall etc to use your own judgement not just because he thinks so.

Has he capped it off if so tell them he does not have your permission and want it reinstated to how it was.
If not just turn it back on

No way is this ID and that is the only way transco would cut a supply off

 

[ChrisR]

Yes he has the right to make a judgement, but he must be able to back it up or he's open to a claim for damages.
Unless the products of combustion are particularly likely to enter the window, ( or something like that he's found) he's going too far.

There are a too many Corgi engineers who like to cut anything off just because they don't think it's nice, citing "erring on the side of caution".
To which I would say "Don't err"!
The line can be a bit fuzzy, but not that much, with your Brazilia, from what you've said.

The mention of CO means he's incompetent or lying.

 

[geezer466]

Snipped

The mention of CO means he's incompetent or lying.

Well that more or less clinches it. The appliance is not in use and hasn't been for the last 2 years to my knowledge. He didn't even fire it up so did not check it's combustion characteristics.

So we have an appliance with a flue 430mm below a window (that he didn't even look out of) that gets a cursory glance and a statement it is unsafe to use.

Thanks for all the replies..