Guttering dispute

[Smileyhelen]

Hi

I'm new to the site. I'd be grateful for any views on this. I feel like im going mad- or stuck in a Kafka novel!

I bought a victorian semi 18 months ago. It had leaking original cast iron guttering which we replaced like for like.

At the rear, it joins to our neighbours guttering to flow to the shared drain on their property. We matched it exactly the same as before and our neighbour knew about the work before hand.

Some time later, my neighbour said in passing that their guttering was leaking and damaging their flat roof so they were going to do some repairs. Their house is in general poor maintenance, you could see their guttering had issues.

Next thing we know, they have added a new downpipe that joins to guttering that they have leant over and attached to our side of the boundary wall above our lean to extensions glass roof. (they have a taller extension than us and wall is on the boundary line). Its very flimsy so cascades over on to the wall and the water that does reach the end discharges on the the floor across both sides of the boundary. We asked them to remove it immediately, they said they would but didn't.

They then changed their mind, saying it was a difference of opinion and they were right to do what they had done.

We had the Trades Man round looking at our bay window roof and they started haranguing them saying they shouldn't have attached our guttering to ours when they were doing the job!

The rending is now getting damaged by overflowing water and our internal plasterboard is getting wet with bubbling paint.

We got a party surveyor who wrote a report including it being a Tort of Nuisance and detailing it had to be returned to how it was by a professional without causing further risk of damage of property. It also says if it isn't we can get Right of Access to put it back how it was or a legal enforcement of the Tort of Nuisance.

Again, they said they would do it and didn't.

Now they have appointed a solicitor and have told us to expect a letter. They say that we changed the course of water by fixing our leaks and that at some point they believe our property had its own down pipe. They want us to prove it was like that for over 20 years but have nothing to support their assertions. They've also run a hose pipe down it and say they don't believe it's overflowing, despite the notice about the Nuisance.

We've given them a copy of the title deeds that include the right of drainage. The surveyor has informed them of prescription rights. We have an image of our house online from before we bought the house.

Add clearly they aren't allowed to attach stuff to our property or cause damage to it.

Their position just seems bonkers and I'm not sure what to do next - we were avoiding a legal route but might have to. Am I missing something or are they as clearly out of line as we think they are???

Thanks for reading if you've got this far.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Yes they're completely out of order adding a downpipe that doesn't discharge to a soakaway or other drainage system, doubly so for trespassing on your property to fit it and causing a nuisance.
Sounds as if you've done all you can in writing, you now need a judgement to enforce it.
Annoyingly the only real winners will be the solicitors, not sure whether you can go small claims with a dispute like this but that would be much cheaper than full court route- trouble is because the judgement will be partly about rights of access it'll probably have to be full civil process.
Its going to cost- when your solicitor sends his final letter before action, remember to mention that he will be applying for a costs protection order (where parties have to pay into court a chunk of cash which, if they lose their case, will be forfeit to the winner along with any other award for works required and nuisance).
I'm sure you've already got a quote from a reputable contractor for rectification works, if not, get one (pay the contractor for their time to quote, you'll get it back in the claim).
Good luck, shame the dispute has to escalate this far but from your words they're determined to play the w*nker card so going legal is going to be your best route.

 

[johnny2007]

They have money to burn in stupid litigation?
All of this for a gutter which would have been easier to refit as it was before.
Shocking.

 

[Smileyhelen]

Thanks for your replies - reassuring to hear that it really is as shocking and out of order as I think.

Today I've written a document that summarises everything and includes the supporting evidence such as pictures and title deeds to send by recorded delivery. Its a last ditch attempt before we go legal.

Unfortunately, they seem to be a vulnerable person and don't have any money either. They genuinely seem to think we changed the course of water when we replaced our guttering and we are too blame.

We've got a separate Nuisance issue with them and they do unregulated building work - but the council aren't interested in that. A total nightmare neighbour.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Mmm, vulnerable...and (more importantly) enough money to get a solicitor but not enough to repair their house properly.
Do they own their house?- if so then not all hope is lost, any financial judgement you obtain against them can ultimately be enforced by registering a charge against their property.
Obviously that would be at the end of a long and costly process...meanwhile your window is rotting.
I'd be tempted (given the relative costs) to send that final letter with an ending paragraph along the lines of 'if rectification is not completed by 31 days from now we will instruct and appoint reputable contractors to undertake the work and pursue you through legal channels for the costs'.
Talk to your solicitor about rights of access. For purely financial stuff, small claims will be a cheap way forward.

 

[Smileyhelen]

I'd not thought of that - presumably they can afford a solicitor! We haven't had the letter though yet though....

They are vulnerable though, we saw inside their house recently because of another issue and it was truly shocking that someone was living like that.

They do own their own house. I think id presumed that people would be reluctant to award us money if it meant putting them in hardship.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Yes, there could be a perception of bullying on your part if they are living on cat food and you're on Fortnums hampers.
Set against that there is their active creation of a problem (rather than the usual scenario of neglecting maintenance).
You have every right to 'peaceful enjoyment of your home', just as they do. I do feel that the small claims route (if you can get redress that way) will reduce any bullying perceptions (as well as not enriching solicitors) but if you have to go the full court route then go for it, you cannot be held responsible for other peoples circumstances, especially when they have created a problem rather than allowing one to happen (don't know about you but i always tick the legal protection box on my house insurance, your neighbours have exactly the same choice and at about £25 per year it isn't particularly extravagant).

 

[^woody^]

Hi

I'm new to the site. I'd be grateful for any views on this. I feel like im going mad- or stuck in a Kafka novel!

I bought a victorian semi 18 months ago. It had leaking original cast iron guttering which we replaced like for like.

At the rear, it joins to our neighbours guttering to flow to the shared drain on their property. We matched it exactly the same as before and our neighbour knew about the work before hand.

Some time later, my neighbour said in passing that their guttering was leaking and damaging their flat roof so they were going to do some repairs. Their house is in general poor maintenance, you could see their guttering had issues.

Next thing we know, they have added a new downpipe that joins to guttering that they have leant over and attached to our side of the boundary wall above our lean to extensions glass roof. (they have a taller extension than us and wall is on the boundary line). Its very flimsy so cascades over on to the wall and the water that does reach the end discharges on the the floor across both sides of the boundary. We asked them to remove it immediately, they said they would but didn't.

They then changed their mind, saying it was a difference of opinion and they were right to do what they had done.

We had the Trades Man round looking at our bay window roof and they started haranguing them saying they shouldn't have attached our guttering to ours when they were doing the job!

The rending is now getting damaged by overflowing water and our internal plasterboard is getting wet with bubbling paint.

We got a party surveyor who wrote a report including it being a Tort of Nuisance and detailing it had to be returned to how it was by a professional without causing further risk of damage of property. It also says if it isn't we can get Right of Access to put it back how it was or a legal enforcement of the Tort of Nuisance.

Again, they said they would do it and didn't.

Now they have appointed a solicitor and have told us to expect a letter. They say that we changed the course of water by fixing our leaks and that at some point they believe our property had its own down pipe. They want us to prove it was like that for over 20 years but have nothing to support their assertions. They've also run a hose pipe down it and say they don't believe it's overflowing, despite the notice about the Nuisance.

We've given them a copy of the title deeds that include the right of drainage. The surveyor has informed them of prescription rights. We have an image of our house online from before we bought the house.

Add clearly they aren't allowed to attach stuff to our property or cause damage to it.

Their position just seems bonkers and I'm not sure what to do next - we were avoiding a legal route but might have to. Am I missing something or are they as clearly out of line as we think they are???

Thanks for reading if you've got this far.

That's a bit of a saga, and TBH I've not read it all.

But the bits I have read seem like they can be dealt with for free by your local council - statutory nuisance for the damage they are causing from the downpipe, and the same environmental health officer can deal with the drainage issue under their powers under the Building Act or environmental health legislation.

Non of this is for compensation, but to rectify the drainage.

Also your home insurers can help with any legal claims or advice.

 

[Smileyhelen]

Thanks Woody. Environmental Health had not occurred to me at all for water - really appreciate this suggestion.

I'll definitely contact them - any free help and avoiding legal action to get it removed would be perfect. And nothing lost if they can't help.

Its likely we'll just take the costs of the repairs and chaulk it up to life experience!

 

[catlad]

If she has lived there a long time and you have put up new guttering then it is very possible that your new system is now causing her issues, unfortunately a lot of incompetent people fitting guttering.

 

[Smileyhelen]

Thanks Catlad. Our guttering was compently replaced and we've had it checked out by an independent surveyor. The work they've done to add the new down pipe causing the damage was done themselves.

It does seem that when the water stopped pouring down the back of our house out the leaks and started moving down the guttering to flow to the shared drain our neighbour's guttering wasnt able to cope with it. They feel we changed the course of water.

But i think they are responsible for the repair of the part from where it joins to theirs at the boundary to the drain?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

If she has lived there a long time and you have put up new guttering then it is very possible that your new system is now causing her issues, unfortunately a lot of incompetent people fitting guttering.

You can say that again! We had half round, but perfectly sound and not too old gutter on our half of the semi, front and back, with shared fall pipes. Next door, without even mentioning it, employed a cowboy soffits, gutter installer, who installed square gutter on their half. Instead of using a proper square to half round adaptor, they botched it with silicon and rusting nuts and bolts. End result was water from the badly installed gutters over flowing down our walls and them refusing to get the cowboys back to repair the gutter damage. I ended up installing new soffits gutters and etc. to match and properly aligning it for fall, plus installing a new fall pipe at the rear.

Next problem, predating that one, was they had a cowboy plumber relocated their kitchen sink. Rather than having in drain into a proper foul water drain, he illegally had it discharging into a rain water gulley, poked through the fence onto my side. We have separate foul and rain water drainage. Grease and food debris was constantly blocking that gully and they had no interest - only my side was flooding every time it rained.

Then they added an extra shower, room, breaking into my new fall pipe for its drain. I warned them several times that what they had done was illegal and they could be prosecuted and fined, but I was told to mind my own business.

Eventually, the local water authority twigged to the misuse of the of the rain water drainage, traced the source and sent out letters threatening court action unless it was rectified. All resolved last year.

 

[johnny2007]

I'd be tempted (given the relative costs) to send that final letter with an ending paragraph along the lines of 'if rectification is not completed by 31 days from now we will instruct and appoint reputable contractors to undertake the work and pursue you through legal channels for the costs'.

As far as I know, when something is damaging a property, the owner is totally within rights to rectify and than make a claim.
So, good advise here, but I wouldn't give 31 days, that's way too long and if rain keeps coming down the wall may be badly affected.
7 days sound more reasonable to me.
Also, call your home insurance.
Tell them that your property is being damaged by your neighbour and they will have an interest in sorting this to avoid you claiming through them.
You might even use their legal advice if it's included or you paid for it.

 

[Smileyhelen]

Hi all. Thanks for all your advice.

We're hitting dead ends at every corner, council, insurance and water board aren't interested. We're now getting letters from our neighbour's solicitor where they are saying we don't have right of drainage. There's everything in there thrown at us, turning the tables from us trying to get their bodge job taken down because of the damage and it being put on our property.

We're baffled because we've spoken to some prior owners who've told us there wasnt previously a downpipe on the rear at our side. And we acted in good faith replacing what was there.

We're trying to look at what options we have to have a new drain connection out in and the guttering separated. We need a way forward and really don't know what to do for the best.

Has anyone got any experience of having semi detached with the guttering separated in the middle?Our worry is that water would go through the gap between stop ends and cause damage.

Has anyone got any experience with roof guttering discharging onto a conservatory glass roof? Without adding a new drain we just have the one that the low volume glass roof goes into, which feeds into the sink outlet. (our kitchen is in the conservatory extension) Our worry here is it overwhelming this.

Thanks

 

[Smileyhelen]

Also, attaching pics of what they have done. (if the attachments have worked!)

Their solicitor has picked apart the surveyor to discredit their assertion that it is a Torte of Nuisance. They debate that its causing the internal damage, saying that could be due to our glass roof. But also that if we stopped our water flowing into the neighbours guttering it would stop if it was causing it - even though the downpipe is joined to their side of the guttering.