Halstead Best 50 - Problems with Ignition Lockout

[Mahadev]

I have a 10 year old Halstead boiler, which has actually only been used in the last few weeks. It appeared to run ok for about 1 week, until I discovered the Ignition Lockout neon was illuminated. I reset as described in the users manual and the boiler relit, although there was some noise from the pump (sounded like a lot of air in the pump) and within a few minutes the boiler had shut down again with Ignition Lockout neon lit again. Having tried to reset again, when I start the boiler, the pump starts (no noise now) after a few seconds the fan starts in the boiler and I can hear the igniter sparking. No gas comes through to the burner and after a few moments the boiler shuts down again, with I. L. neon lit again. I have followed through the Fault Diagnosis chart supplied and have 240 volts at the various pins, the only puzzle is the pink dc voltage line, terminal 1, which is supposed to read 10Volts DC if OK and 1 V DC if electronics are faulty, reads around 50 Volts?
Anyone had similar problems, or useful advice, I would like to hear from you asap, as its getting cold out here in somerset.
Any help would be more than welcome.
Cheers M

 

[Mahadev]

Is the anyone out there who can point me in the right direction?

 

[Agile]

It is very difficult for me to guess what your problem is from what you have said.

In front of the boiler the problem would be very quickly apparent as I would check the flow and return temperatures, safety devices and gas valve. As some of these checks require CORGI registration I cannot give you advice on them.

I suggest you call a properly experienced CORGI registered engineer.

Tony Glazier

 

[ChrisR]

If it says 1v or 10v, then 50v obviously sounds like a fault but I've had funny votages from working ones. "We" would check the operation of the boiler not necessarily sticking to the fault finding guide, as they can be misleading. You could check the resistances of the gas valve coils if you're ok to do that, probably 1-3k. Beyond that I don't think there's much guidance we can give.

--
Hadn't seen Tony's answer, which is saying much the same!

 

[Mahadev]

Hi Guys thanks for your responses.
I've checked the resistance of the coils which give a reading of 1.5K, also the voltage to the coils, which reads 230V DC when trying to ignite. I reported this to Halstead technicians who commented it must be a sticking gas valve and I need to get it replaced!
Bearing in mind this boiler has only been operating for about 7 days, surely there must be a way of 'unsticking' this valve other than buying as new one (who's to say a new one won't stick like the original)
Can someone confirm whether or not a gas valve can be 'repaired' or 'unstuck' if that's the problem?
Any information gratefully received.
Thanks again
M

 

[Slugbabydotcom]

You could try tapping it gently. If it works then see how it goes. I suspect that if it has stuck once it will probably do it again and needs renewing.
As already stated, it is a corgi job.

 

[Mahadev]

Hi, Thanks again for your comments, however lightly tapping did not resolve situation. In fact I was considering belting it with a sledge hammer, but I didn't want to damage my hammer!
Important question: Lets assume it is just a sticking solenoid or valve, is it likely a Corgi Registered Plumber will attempt to 'unstick it' or is he going to tell me I need a new gas valve at £150 + vat? I know that's a difficult question in someways, but if it is the general policy to replace rather than fix, and the gas valves are not at all serviceable, as suggested by the Halstead Engineers, then this boiler could be an economic 'write off.'
I get the feeling the world of Boiler Manufacture do not give a toss about environmental issues, it seems to follow the policy of 'if in doubt put a new one in.'
I have already recently scrapped a boiler, albeit an old one, just because the electromagnet device connected to the thermocouple packed in. Probably would of cost no more than a fiver if Honeywell would sell components for their gas valves for you guys to fit!
Thanking you in advance for a sensible response.
A very cheesed off M.

 

[Slugbabydotcom]

We tend to renew for a few reasons.
My main reason is that if it was repaired then you would end up with a gas valve that is in the latter stages of its existence.
Fitting a new one means that you will have a guaranteed part so that the installer doesnt have to go back if something else goes wrong with the valve.
The cost of parts is another reason. I recently renewed a solenoid to a gas valve but the cost was disproportionate [60%] of a new valve. It was economical in this case as the valve was less than six months old and I was converting it from 24V to 240V operation.

A lot of people wouldnt know how to take a gas valve apart and can't be bothered learning but this is symptomatic of some of the reasons given above.

 

[Agile]

To add to what Slug has siad above, gas valves are precision components assembled in clean rooms and stringently tested.

The gas valve has an important safety function to turn the gas off when the gas on signal is removed. If this is not achieved that a serious gas fired fire could follow.

This safety issue requires that the valve is only assembled by the manufacturer who can then ensure it fully meets all their tests. In the extreme they have insurance cover in case of catestrophic failure.

It is not surprising that boiler engineers are not permitted to tamper with the internal components. Some gas valves have external solenoids which can be safely changed.

I have only once ever seen a gas valve which had stuck on and this was ( luckily ) in a conventional system and just resulted in boiling of the water.

Tony Glazier

 

[Mahadev]

Hi again,
Thanks again for your replies.
I fully understand where you're coming from, as any plumber carrying out work on a boiler would not and should not bear the responsibility if something should go wrong.
My previous comments were born out of frustration really, as the road I'm forced to go down feels like having to buy an new engine for a car, just because the spark plugs need changing!
All I really needed to know was 'is there any other option other than replacing the gas valve' and from what you say the answer is definitely no.
As I said in my earlier enquiry, the boiler has only been used for around a week, having been in storage for a while and out of warranty, which makes it even more annoying whan a component fails.
Also I'm assuming the valve is stuck shut, as there is not gas getting to the burner, however from what you say, it may be a safety feature in 'fail safe' mode which is the problem.
However I will take your advice and get a plumber to come and have a look and advise me accordingly.
Thanks again for all your advice and time
M

 

[Mahadev]

Hi Again Guys
Well I've managed to 'unstick' the gas valve without even touching it. I'm not sure whether I should mention the process I used as you guys will think I'm a nutter.
However in the process of checking the pipe work I noticed there was no valved by-pass loop in the system, apart from the fact the pipe work feeds a myson electric fan 'heater' through an unrestricted 15 mm pipe in the kitchen. This was installed when the house was new, presumeably because there was no wall space to mount a radiator.
I believe the loop is to ensure the returning water to the boiler does not have too great a temperature drop, this being 'set' by adjusting a 22mm gate valve in the loop.
So, if this is so, does the system need this loop? It wouldn't be difficult to add to the system.
It ran perfectly well without one, albeit the original boiler had a much larger capacity, around 6 or 7 litres, compared to the halstead.

Also I've just noticed when the boiler closes down, there appears to be a light metallic knocking sound about every 2 seconds which appears to come from the flue elbow on top of the boiler. I guess this may be pipe movement somewhere in the system, however it does seem strange it appears loudest near the boiler. This is not the kettling sound you may get from an old boiler or if the boiler is over heating. Maybe I need to get a water degasser thingy. Note I haven't yet added corrosion inhibitor (Fernox) as I suspected I may need to drain the system again.
Your comments would be gratefully received.
A slightly warmer M.

 

[Slugbabydotcom]

I've managed to 'unstick' the gas valve without even touching it. I'm not sure whether I should mention the process I used as you guys will think I'm a nutter.

You can't be that much of a nutter if it worked !!! Tell me about it! I may learn something useful.

 

[ChrisR]

Perhaps he read about how we unstick water valves with a blowlamp and tried that on his gas valve? "Nutter" would be about right in that case!

 

[Mahadev]

To Chris R,
Nope, didn't use a blow lamp on the gas valve, that's a job for a Corgi registered Gas Fitter!
Mahadev

 

[Mahadev]

To Slugbabydotcom
I would be very grateful to hear your views on whether a valved by-pass is necessary, bearing in mind there is unrestricted flow in the upstairs loop of the pipework.
I'll give you details of the 'fix' later on when I have more time. Lunch break is over!
Thanks again
A very warm M