Help with broken system and being lead up garden path !!

[alexm]

Hi there, I’ve been a regular reader in the forums for a while, and thanks to the posts on the forum I have been able to fix many issues in my home, very much appreciated!! I now have a problem that I would like to glean some of all your combined worldly wisdom with to help me work out my next steps…as I’m very confused.

Sorry for the really long post…but I’m trying to provide as much detail as I can!

(From the sticky at the top of the thread!)

1) Boiler make / model (gas or oil) - Potterton Profile 60e – Around 15-17 years old
2) What is / is not happening - Tried to explain as much as I can below. Can post photos if it would help!
3) Has ANYTHING else been done or changed recently –Change to fully pumped and added TRV’s on all rads
4) When did the problem start? – After the leaks?
5) When does it happen? eg, heating coming on or going off – Can hear the water overflowing into the feed expansion tank both when the pump is starting (gushing) and when the system is up to temp (regular/constant flow over)
6) Anything else you feel may be of relevance – getting very confused now!! This is all I understand.

(more detailed explanation below)

Back in Sept 06 we had our bathroom replaced, as a part of this our plumber changed the hot-water system to fully pumped from a gravity fed system. Replacing the hot-water cylinder and adding a new controller to our boiler and a new cylinder stat.

After this work we noticed that when just the hot water was on, we’d have two radiators upstairs that would also gradually heat up and there was a lot of condensation in the loft, and that two of the upstairs radiators would also fill with air over a period of about two weeks. To resolve this, the plumber put in a non-return valve into the heating and changed the tank in the loft to one that was covered to prevent the condensation getting into the loft. (I now know that the tank shouldn’t get this hot in the first place!).

Then in Dec07 and Jan08 I noticed that the overflow pipe on the feed/expansion tank was dripping outside, it was not poring out, just a drip so I left it for a while….(big mistake)….followed in March by a leak into one of our bedrooms upstairs from the feed/expansion tank. Still need to replace part of the ceiling and repaint. The plumber that did the original change to the system had emigrated, but sent a friend who turned the pump right down and said this would fix it straight away. It did, but there was also the side effect of now two radiators upstairs hardly heat up at all!

I don’t want to call back the original plumber, or his friend. I’m getting a really strong feeling that I’ve been taken for a ride!

Over the past few weeks we noticed that the overflow had started to drip AGAIN!! – so to avoid loosing any more ceilings I called in a couple of plumbers for opinions on how to proceed…all of whom have different opinions about what could be causing the problem….all have vastly different quotes on what to do next….and I don’t understand a thing about their quotes let alone how to proceed!

One says; nothing wrong with the installation but needs to replace the F/e tank, add a further non-return valve (next to f/e tank??!??) and then power-flush system….around £500.
Another says; all the pipework to the hot-water and upstairs radiators need to be replaced, air separator installed, install a vent to loft (according to him there isn’t one at present)…..around £1200
Another says; the boiler is too old for me to do anything…need to replace that before they can start…from £3000.
Another says; replace the header tank, water cylinder and central heating boiler…(I didn’t ask for a quote from him!!)

Ahhhhh!!!

I’ve even asked for British Gas to give me a quote to replace the entire boiler and expansion tank, their engineer said to me that the whole boiler system and main pipe work needs to be pulled out and replaced but the controllers and pumps could be re-used, but I’m really not sure if we need to progress that far. Plus I’m not sure if I can find the over £4,000 for them to do the work But I do like the sound of a fully guaranteed and underwritten system by a company with a reputation and potentially avoiding any more potentially dodgy work.

From reading earlier posts on the overflowing expansion tanks, it sounds like the entire system is getting too hot… so to avoid any further issues I’ve turned it all off…at least it’s fairly warm (for the moment!)…but we need something fixed before the summer ends!

I know it will be really difficult to diagnose a particular fix, but are there any pointers or questions that I should ask a plumber so that I can work out if I’m being lead up the garden path again?

Or recommend a good plumbing book I could at least read to understand all the terms?

I would really appreciate any advice or recommendation from the experts here!

Thanks.

(happy to answer any other questions or to provide photo’s of the install if needed!)

 

[nickso]

hmm sounds like the pipework is not quite up to the job. quite alot of info there and its difficult to give a definitive answer without seeing it.

my guess would be the conversion to fully pumped is poorly piped up giving you the pumping over and rad heating.

a proper conversion to fully pumped with an indirect cylinder and the proper controls shouldnt need check valves everywhere. im a little concerned by the guy who wants to put a check valve near the f+e, especially as another guy wants to put a "vent" up there, that may mean its a combined feed and expansion, putting a check valve in that pipe is a danger. turning the pump down isnt a solution either.

the guys who have said the pipework needs redoing could very well be right but again its hard to say without seeing it.

 

[alexm]

Thanks Nickso, appreciate your comments and opinion. I understand that it is very difficult to comment on the system without seeing it.

Sounds like I should keep getting more quotes until I find a consensus of opinion on what to do next!! - Althought I am getting more&more tempted with the approach of having the lot ripped out and replaced!

 

[nickso]

the cylinder is new and the boiler isnt that old in the grand scheme of things (age doesnt necessarily mean its a nail).

my advice without seeing it is get someone to repipe it properly. you may find it worthwhile replacing the boiler now as its not new or indeed efficient, but that would entirely depend on your budget or inclination. if the boiler was replaced it may also be beneficial to make it a sealed system, again thats down to budget and inclination.

 

[alexm]

Thanks for the advice, yes I'm trying to get someone to re-pipe it. but getting a consistant answer to the problem and finding someone trustworth is proving a little tough!

 

[diverdee]

check fill and vent are on the negative side of the pump.many are not on older systems and have to be moved when changing to a fully pumped system

 

[andytheplumber]

This also happens when the boiler thermostat is faulty. The water keeps on heating up and travels around the pipework, it normally heats up the F+E tank . This would explain the steam in the loft

 

[Agile]

It would usually be relativey simple to convert to a sealed system and that would hide most of those kind of faults.

If you choose someone who is a member of the IPHE ( CIPHE ) then they have a code of practice and you have a right to complain if you are not happy with the technical standard of their member's work.

Unfortunately many people working in this industry can just about manage to fit a boiler but get a little lost when called on to diagnose and rectify piping and layout problems.

As you hide your location we cannot suggest anyone good in your area!

Tony

 

[tonybhoy]

You would need an overheat kit or a sealed system kit from Potterton to convert to a sealed system ,doubt they still make them for this boiler given it's age

 

[alexm]

Many thanks for all the advice. It is really good to get some honest input! What sort of cost would I be looking at to move to a a fully sealed system?(ballpark i know).

There are plenty of people offering to replace the boiler but hardly anyone I've called seems to want to spend any time diagnosing the problem first!!

Thanks for the recomendation to get someone from the IPHE will look now.

All advice very appreciated!

Alex.

(Hadn't realised I'd hidden my location, I'm just outside Croydon, SE London)

 

[D_Hailsham]

.. After this work we noticed that when just the hot water was on, we’d have two radiators upstairs that would also gradually heat up ...

I may be wrong, but this suggests reverse flow to me; i.e. wrongly piped cylinder return.

 

[Agile]

Sounds like a job for Croydoncapita then!

You can revise your location from just UK to Surrey or possible SW London.

Tony

 

[alexm]

Again, thanks for input.

Had another chap come around this evening who says that the expansion pipe up into the loft needs to be increased in height up to apex of roof (>6ft more) then down to the f&e tank....and that would solve it. apparently.

But if that is the case would this not ignore the issue of radiators getting warm when the hot water is on?

Heading deeper and deeper into the realms of mis-understanding!!

 

[sambotc]

Try and flick the heating on, let it get hot and go up into the loft. Check water is not coming out of the vent pipe. Sounds like the feed and expansion are causing circulation around the F+E tank which would explain the dripping overflow, steam in loft and air problems. The rad's getting hot when water on will most likely be, as already said, reerse circulation caused by incorrrect return pipe work.

Sam

 

[heatingman]

The heating returns are not commoned correctly, causing reverse circulation. Expect the cold feed and open vent have not been correctly altered during convert to fully pumped. Ball valve level needs adjusting to give enough room for expansion.
All simple plumbing defects, basic system design faults. Non-return valves and 6ft vent pipes are bodging