Help with repairing creaking floors in flat above!

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Hello all!

Hopefully someone can provide some guidance for me! Apologies for the length of the msg, but wanted to be thorough!

I recently moved into a new (purchased) flat. It’s in a 1920s/30s block and I’m on the ground floor. The couple in the flat above were away when I made my two visits before buying, so I didn’t hear the outrageous creaking of their old floorboards. Had I known, I probably wouldn’t have bought it. But I have, so I need to deal with it!

Literally every step they take is accompanied by a very loud groan. It’s worst above my bedroom, and while it probably doesn’t wake me up if I’m asleep, if I’m trying to get to sleep and they’re walking around, no chance. This is clearly a pretty big problem. They have carpet above, and there’s no specific requirement in the lease re keeping anything in a state of good repair. So for now the managing agent (who seems competent and helpful) has suggested I deal with the owners directly, and come back to him if I don’t make any headway.

The owners are elderly, but seem nice enough, so I’m going to have a friendly chat with them to explain the situation. But I’d like to be armed with as much info as possible before doing so. I’m guessing that the creaking is caused by the nails in the floorboards coming loose over time, and to fix this they’d need to be screwed down to the joists again. Obviously the carpet and underlay will need to be taken back, so it’s going to be a significant and disruptive process either way, but I’m trying to get a sense of how big the actual repair work is. I.e. assuming the space is clear for work and the floorboards are ready to be tackled, how long might it take an experienced builder to re-screw the floorboards down well? Are we talking a day or a week’s work? Is it even likely that a good job can be done when the floors are that creaky? The flat is around 130 sq metres (~1400 sqft).

Assuming for now that is all done, the soundproofing between the flats is also pretty bad. Let’s put it this way – I can tell that the elderly gentleman pees like a racehorse, so kudos to him. I can hear their TV pretty easily, and I’m sure they can hear mine. Privacy isn’t great. Given the work above would require taking up their carpets, would it help if the carpet underlay were replaced with a good quality acoustic underlay? I believe the airborne noise is coming directly through the floors as all the walls separating the various rooms are solid.
 
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Its possible to put one hell of a lot of screws down in a day.....but the problem is ensuring that there aren't any pipes or cables chased into the floor joists!
Just thought I'd add that one - having been caught out before :p
John :)
 
The creaking could be, in order of likelihood.

Nails rubbing in boards.

Boards rubbing against each other.

The joist flexing, and rubbing against the board.

Screws, lots of them, will fix the first two, but the third (and most unlikely anyway), will be improved, but won't be stopped without replacing the floor.

As to sound transmission, resilient battens and another layer of plasterboard, you can do that with no disruption to them.

Putting insulation between the joists would do alot, but most people won't be very keen on having that done.
 
You might be better to build yourself a new ceiling if you have just moved in and want to sound proof yourself from above.
 
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Thanks guys. Been a while, still battling with the owners above!

If they let me, sounds like screwing the floorboards down again will certainly help. (Watching out for pipes!).

Aron - for the battens "without disruption to them" - what do you mean exactly? I've checked them out and the battens look to be ~55mm high and would seem to go between the original flooring and the upper underlay/carpet? If so, I think the height will be too much.

Is there some kind of "normal" flooring underlay with useful acoustic protection? If so, I guess I could just try and do a straight swap with the one they currently have.

Finally, creating a new ceiling in my flat. I'm loathe to do it because of losing ceiling height, but if it turns out to be the only possibility, I'd do it. What do you think the min height I'd need to do it for it to be useful?

Thanks again everyone!
 
So the battle continues….I’ve had a couple of insulation experts round. Consensus is that a properly installed ceiling (hanger or better yet fully independent) will provide excellent (up to 75%) insulation from airborne + impact noise, the benefit with respect to the creaky floorboards will be both considerably less, as well as difficult to predict. I guess the noise just goes through the structure, through joists, down the walls etc. At £100/square metre plus plastering/painting costs, this could end up being nothing but an expensive experiment!

A few more additional queries - if anyone would be able to provide advice/suggestions, fantastic!

1) Does anyone have experience/positive feedback of any ceiling installers operating in the London area?

2) If I were to take my original ceiling down and access joists/subfloor/flooring of the flat above from my end, could I fix the problem of the creaking? The flat above has carpet (and I assume underlay) on top. To stop the creaking I guess screws would have to go through the joist, subfloor and into the hardwood floor, being VERY careful not to penetrate through the floor. I’ve been reading about joist bridging, squeak-relief brackets and the like. But is it really possible/advisable to do this from below?

Thanks again to everyone who’s taking the time to respond to this, it’s massively helpful!
 
Hi Mark

Absolutely no to removing your ceiling and attempting the the fix from your end, its wouldnt be possible because you need to add weight to the floor above to identify the creeks. Also your ceiling would still need replacing.

So,.....Your options are,

Arrange to get it remidied from the flat above by way of removal of carpet, underlay, all furniture and two old people!

+ Problem remidied and floor board issue sorted
- Lack of privacy remains

Or

Have your ceiling battened and boarded (reducing head room by 4-6"). You would be absolutely amazed how much noise reduction you get from another skin of plasterboard, you would get back you privacy and probably not even notice the creeking floor boards.

If it were me, 2nd option all day long, I really dont think you need to be involving sound proof guys in this instance mate.

Cheers
 
Ukes, thanks for that, very helpful.

Very much take your point re removing the ceiling. I also don’t know whether it’s a lath and plaster ceiling (how do I tell?) which I understand would be a nightmare to take down.

Understand about putting weight to identify source of creeks. That said, every step they take, anywhere in the room, causes massive creaking, so I’m guessing each and every one is the culprit. That was why I thought attacking from below might work?

Even using those 6 inches as you say, putting in new ceiling, acoustic plasterboard, mineral wool etc. I’ve been told that it would only have a minor effect on creaking because the noise would travel along the joists/flank down walls etc, bypassing the new ceiling. What I really don’t want is to do the ceiling, have great protection from airborne noise, but still be at square one re creaking!
 
Mark, the simple way to test if its lath is to twist a small screwdriver through it, if its lath you wont we able to drive it through very easily, wheres with pkasterboard you will (providing you are not hitting a joist), which will be obvious. And yes, removing lath is a nightmare!!! I pulled down my whole house, never again.

Im assuming that you have been told about little noise reduction from a soundproofing company? Personally i dont agree, i think an extra board would make a massive difference to your situation....in an ideal world you would remidy it from above AND below......but thats costly in the extreme.

If i had one option i would choose the boarding without doubt,....i think you would notice a hige difference, privacy gained and a massive chance of problem solved......could always attempt from above at a later date if you still wete not satisfied.

Cheers.
 
Thanks again ukes, appreciate it. Great tip re the screwdriver, I’ll try that tonight. My guess is it isn’t lath and plaster because that should have much better acoustic properties than I’m getting. Unless loads of sound is coming down the chimney which I also need to investigate.

Yes indeed, 2 soundproofing companies. To be fair, they both said the same thing. That a new soundproofed ceiling (either hanger or fully independent) would be excellent for combatting airborne noise, but provide less benefit against creaking. And believe me, the creaking is BAD.

I’m just worried about getting someone in who knows what they are doing. My friend recently did a refurb, including a resilient bar soundproofing system put in by the building contractors (not a soundproofing specialist) and it’s done diddly-squat because it’s obviously been installed incorrectly.
 

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