Home tv AV installation wall interfaces needed

[phb10186]

I was just after some resources or advice for my home renovation project as far as TV AV goes.

I am just in the process of installing boxes and cutting chasing in the walls to take the required cabling. Power and lighting are done, but I have to do some research before I cut the amount of boxes for the TVs. As wall boxes are unsightly, especially at TV level, less is more, thus if there is a good wireless solution that would be better.

Desired: TV/ Freeview and Virgin/ Sky + Auxs at main TV in lounge. All boxes situated there, with additional TVs in bedroom 1 and 2 on the wall with no visible cables. I am fairly indifferent about wall mounting to be fair, but it saves about 1-2 ft of room space, so if they are going to go on the wall, I will go for a cable-free look. I would need to be able to controll the boxes on the main TV in the lounge via IR in rooms 2 and 3.

I am not realistically going to watch SAT in more than one room at a time, but it would be nice to have the freeview or DVD option simultaneously in bedrooms 1 and 2. Additionally, I am ditching everything that is not HDMI at this point.

I have seen HDMI wireless senders around for about £150-200 that allow you to send wireless to TV 2 and so on... I will opt for these as long as there are no general reception issues or common interference issues.

Otherwise, am I correct in thinking that I will need power, HDMI, Co-ax and sat to each additional TV? Or at least power, HDMI and coax.

Is there another solution?

I would take wireless based on ease and cost, but am prepared to fit cable in chasing if need be.

Is there a minimum distance from power that other cables need to be?

Is there a good online reference for all these scenarios; mine of which seems to be a common scenario.

 

[Sam Gangee]

Coaxial cables need to be at least 100mm away from power cables (to minimise risk of interference pulses from the mains) or maybe more - especially if your neighbour's hobby is welding!

Coaxial cables may not be run in the same conduit as mains cable unless separated by a grounded metal barrier.

I recommend running as many coaxial cables as you could feasibly need, bearing in mind women's propensity for rearranging furniture.

Installing wireless equipment retrospectively is much easier than installing cables.

You can leave unused cables loosely coiled in a wall cavity or behind an aesthetically pleasing wall plate, or terminate them properly.

You might also consider installing Ethernet cables and maybe even fibre optic "cable" for future use.

Note that Wf100 coaxial cable is available in 6 colours, which makes identifying ends easy.

Are you planning to distribute satellite and aerial signals via a multiswitch? That way you have the option of a Freeview receiver and satellite receiver at every point. (You'll need two points for a PVR).
http://www.satcure.co.uk/tech/multiswitches.htm

Chris (a forum member) is an AV expert so you should wait for his input, too.

 

[ChrisFrost]

This gear uses the same technology as wireless internet routers. If dealing with those frequency bands has taught us anything then it it this...

i) signal speed and reliability diminish quickly with distance

ii) signal black holes appear for no apparent reason, but usually to do with the structure of the building and co-channel interference

iii) the higher the channel frequency the shorter the transmission range i.e. b/g Ch1 has the greatest reach, b/g Ch 13 the shortest

iv) there's a lot of competition for channel space: other's wireless routers, wireless enabled TVs etc, bluetooth devices, DECT cordless phones, baby monitors, wireless remotes, wireless CCTV cams, etc etc etc

v) b/g supports only three channel frequencies without channel overlap - in other words if collectively you and your neighbours have more than three wireless devices operating then someone somewhere is taking a performance hit

vi) microwave ovens dump a load of interference in to the wireless bands

vii) 802.11n does not improve range, it only improves speed thanks to less competition from other devices

viii) manufacturer's distance and speed claims should be taken with a very large dose of salt

ix) just because it works today doesn't mean it will still work tomorrow.



The reason why we "get away with it" at the moment with wireless products is because...

a) the receiving device buffers the signal e.g. laptops, pads and smart phones

b) the bandwidth demands are relatively small or only required for short data bursts e.g. DECT phones

c) the distances involved are relatively short

d) signal strength diminishes quickly over distance i.e. I can detect 20 neighbouring wireless router signals but they are faint enough not to cause too much of a problem unless I am approaching the limit of my transmission range


The situation with streaming HD 1080p wirelessly is quite different. The receiver or TV won't buffer the signal (see their claims of "no delay for gaming"). The equipment is sharing an already crowded frequency spectrum. Moving 1080p requires sustained data transmission.


Professionally there are just too many "ifs" and vague "up to" statements in the makers claims for me to have confidence in a wireless 1080p video system other than for very short bridge distances. I certainly wouldn't offer it as a solution for multiroom, but then again that's because I am liable for any support issues if and when it stops working. Cabling is far more reliable.

For a DIY install it may well work, but I would be prepared for some teething issues and maybe even going through the hassle of trying several different devices to see which ones actually perform okay. Then learn as much as you can about the pitfalls of wireless because you'll be the one at the sharp end if the system falls over.

 

[SimonH2]

A friend/colleague went through the same question process not long ago. What we've done is to chase in some rectangular mini-trunking and the deepest boxes available - a single behind the TV (in a dual box with a power socket), a double either side of the fireplace where they'll be behind units, and a double in each bedroom. The trunking is large enough to get HDMI cables down without problem and they all come up into the loft - it's a bungalow, we've fitted flouro lights, but it's still to be boarded out.

This means it's a doddle to install what he wants when he makes his mind up. We are rather expecting to be fitting an HDMI matrix switch in the loft (many of these use dual Cat5 cables) as he'll be having large screen in both bedrooms and will want to be able to watch TV/Sky, play games on <whatever console>, etc on any screen.

We'll probably use brush strip plates to tidy the boxes up, or may terminate the cables - it depends what he ends up with.

 

[phb10186]

Thanks for all the help.

I have been doing some research into this, and I concur with the wireless option's reliability issues. Also, you would need a wireless HDMI unit, and then another for the RF signal for freeview etc etc.

The suggested option of installing the widest channel you can and then having the option to change via a brushed box cover and the deepest box you can find is fairly good.

I think the value of CAT 5e cable is decreasing due to products like this:

http://shop.powerethernet.com/

So realistically you would want a quad + HDMI setup, with FM/ DAB, TV via aerial, Sat1 and a spare co-ax as Sat 2 for the future. Then you might want HDMI too if you wanted to stream HDMI signals around.

The final problem lies with the infra-red signalling... I havnt quite worked this out yet, but SKY has many products out there for RF2 controlled infra red senders - though I really wanted Virgin Tivo HD, I personally think it is better than sky, and I want to make use of virgin broadband.

TV link make products like the Loftbox, which would work with SKY, and a company called Triax make a product called Tri-link.

However Virgin PVRs don't come with the RF2 connectors to allow the remote control signal to be sent to the PVR in room A from from room B. So Other than opting for sky, I have not seen a solution here yet.

Realistically, I want the main load of equipment in the lounge and then have the facility to send the Virgin/ Sky signal to TV2 and TV3 if I want. As far as DVD goes, I wouldnt mind that function, if I maintain IR control, but there are slim dvd players that can mount behind the TV which would also do...

The main issue is routing the coax from freeview aerial via a splitter and amplifier in the loft to each TV, AND then getting the SKY/ Virgin signal to these TVs also... the Virgin cable tends to come in at ground level as well...

The final solution is a multiple freeview setup with a SKY/ Virgin faux multiroom with the IR adapters controlling the downstairs PVR...

I think that is is... I am just wondering how Virgin will work to these rooms without that RF2 connector. For example, what on a Tivo box is there to read that IR signal from upstairs?

 

[SimonH2]

I think the value of CAT 5e cable is decreasing due to products like this:

http://shop.powerethernet.com/[/QUOTE]
Nooooooooooooooooooooo. Really, really, REALLY treat PLTs as the option of absolute last resort. A cat5e will reliably carry 1Gbps ethernet all day, every day, pretty well regardless of what anyone else does. And it will do it with negligible interference to anything else. It will also carry (with the right adapters) just about anything else (such as HDMI).

On the other hand, PLTs are unreliable, slow (TheRegister recently reviewed a "500Mbps" set and got but a small fraction of that), guaranteed to create interference to someone somewhere, and arguably illegal (they are a transmitter by design and hence unlicensable, but OfCon are too afraid of upsetting BT to take any action even when their own research tells them this).
http://www.ban-plt.co.uk/

The final problem lies with the infra-red signalling... I havnt quite worked this out yet, but SKY has many products out there for RF2 controlled infra red senders
...
The main issue is routing the coax from freeview aerial via a splitter and amplifier in the loft to each TV, AND then getting the SKY/ Virgin signal to these TVs also... the Virgin cable tends to come in at ground level as well...

The final solution is a multiple freeview setup with a SKY/ Virgin faux multiroom with the IR adapters controlling the downstairs PVR...

I think that is is... I am just wondering how Virgin will work to these rooms without that RF2 connector. For example, what on a Tivo box is there to read that IR signal from upstairs?

Don't even think of using the "RF2" out (or equivalent) to pipe your pictures around. These carry mono audio, composite video, and all RF modulated - just about the lowest quality of picture and sound possible. There are plenty of IR repeaters that work by transmitting an IR signal at the base unit which activates the equipment in the same way as if you were in the same room with the remote. Also, HDMI-CEC (HDMI-Consumer Electronics Control) is getting common although every manufacturer calls it something different and tried to pretend it's something only they have. AFAIK it's still fairly undeveloped, but in theory it should allow control of a whole system via the HDMI cables. I have a friend with a Panasonic (they call it VieraLink or something like that) TV and surround sound system - and set up right it all "just works" from one control.

 

[Sam Gangee]

I agree with all the above and would just like to add that you can use the Sky Digibox RF2 socket ONLY for the "magic eye" via thin coaxial cable (e.g. WF65-1). You don't have to connect it to a TV.

Also, in relation to the DVD player, beware of causing reliability issues. A DVD player that is too close to a TV can cause problems of interference and may also overheat if the location gets warm.

 

[ChrisFrost]

Just to echo what others here have said about PLTs; they're half a step up from a wireless solution but they introduce a whole extra set of problems. PLTs and wireless are the "convenience" solutions for people who know no better or just can't be bothered. If you are taking the time to do research, and using our collective expertise and time in the process, then you are not in the "can't be bothered" camp.

CAT cable or direct HDMI distribution provides the correct solution. They're not the cheapest solutions, but at least you won't be going mad trying to fix other issues or wishing you'd spent the little extra to get the job done right.

At this point it's worth clarifying what we mean by CAT cable solutions, and also cover a couple of the most salient points before you spring off to do more reading...

CAT cable can be used for carrying IP traffic e.g. your internet and computer data from hard drives to media players. It can also be used for point-to-point devices such as HDMI over CAT baluns. However, the two things can't be mixed on the same network. Baluns are not IP devices. The signals they transmit can not go through routers and switches nor can those signals co-exist with IP traffic.

If you want a single network solution then you'll need something to IP'ise the live video streams. That's doable but the most expensive solution.

After researching for a while you'll probably come to the same conclusion as most others in your position. It will come down to either a HDMI splitter per source, then multiple HDMI cables to each display. Or you'll go for a matrix switch system where each source connects to a hub, and one cable carries the switched signal to each room. The matrix switcher takes care of source selection and allows each source to feed one / some or all rooms art the same time. These also cater for IR control.

 

[phb10186]

There is a lot of good advice here.

The sum total of all of this advice is to run Sat coax, aerial coax, Cat5e and HDMI around the house.

That way you can please yourself. Is there anything else I need to be aware of?

 

[SimonH2]

The sum total of all of this advice is to run Sat coax, aerial coax, Cat5e and HDMI around the house.

Sat and aerial coax is the same stuff - at least if you have any sense and avoid the cheap and nasty stuff that isn't even good for a washing line. You want quality coax with a full copper foil and a full copper braid - that will be good for sat or terrestrial.

I'd say the most important thing is to leave yourself with something flexible so you can change it as things change. When my parents were "doing the lounge" I ran a full SCART cable from where the TV (normally) goes to the corner where the stereo lived - and yes it did get used at times. But of course that's not all that much use these days (HDMI wasn't even thought of when I did it), and it would be hard work to change it now with fitted carpets etc.

I'd suggest you should try and make yourself a central distribution point, whether that's in the loft, cellar, a cupboard, somewhere else is down to the design of the house. Obviously, getting conduit from the living room to the attic on a house can mean a lot of chasing out and making good. Then get your aerial and sat feeds to that point and you can patch them where they need to go.

For something like Sky+ with remote TVs you may need up to 4 coaxes (2x sat feed, aerial in, RF2 out), but with multiplexors and splitters you can cut that to 2. HDMI cables are bulky to get into conduit (especially as it's not practical for most people to fit plugs) - but you can extend them with 2x Cat5e cables (the 1x Cat5e extenders put limits on the signals).

So I'd say if you are doing something that won't be upgradable later, you want a minimum of 2x coax and 4x Cat5e cables (2 for an HDMI extender, 1 for network, 1 for phone - but that could all change) back to your central point. Then you can assign functions to the cables as needed.

If you are in a Virgin Media area then you may also need to consider what cabling that might need.

 

[phb10186]

I dont really understand the extension of HDMI with Cat 5e, not looked at that yet, so unsure, and I dont really understand the number of coaxes to each room, or what the RF2 cable does, and what it is.

They do a standard 2 gang box with a brush plate cover (rather than a 2g plug etc)... what you do is just run all your cables out of the brush plate, and into your TV.

Perhaps you could give me some advice. To each of the bedrooms I would like the following from the main av equipment:

Cat5 2 to each room
SAT coax 2 to each room
HDMI - 1 to each room
Aerial for freeview - 1 to each room
FM/DAB... 1 to each room
IR sender... 1 to each room

Could you let me know how many cables I need to run for this?

Many thanks.

 

[phb10186]

do you use a cat 5/6 crossed cable such as when connecting 2 pcs or a regular one?

 

[SimonH2]

I dont really understand the extension of HDMI with Cat 5e

HDMI cables get expensive quickly as you go longer - plus the biggie here is that they are all pre-terminated which means you need a big bit of trunking to be able to get a connector down it. The cost of extenders which use 2x Cat5e cables has come down significantly, so you may want to consider using that instead of an HDMI cable just for the "easier to install cables" aspect.

or what the RF2 cable does, and what it is.

It's a "Sky thing". On the back of a Sky box is an RF2 output which does several things :
It provides video of whatever is on the main screen - at the lowest possible quality because it's composite video, mono sound, and RF modulated. So you can pipe this around the house and tune in to your Sky box on any TV. With the right splitter/dist amp, you can use remote receivers and have remote control because the RF2 out also listens for remote control signals.
The RF2 out quality was "just about acceptable" in the days of SD, but I wouldn't recommend it for HD (you'll be disappointed if the TV is larger than 10").

They do a standard 2 gang box with a brush plate cover (rather than a 2g plug etc)... what you do is just run all your cables out of the brush plate, and into your TV.

Yes - but you have to get the cables there in the first place.

Perhaps you could give me some advice. To each of the bedrooms I would like the following from the main av equipment:

Cat5 2 to each room
SAT coax 2 to each room
HDMI - 1 to each room
Aerial for freeview - 1 to each room
FM/DAB... 1 to each room
IR sender... 1 to each room

Could you let me know how many cables I need to run for this?

Things will change, and unless you have ready access to run new cable then you'll be stuck with it. So unless you really will be able to add more cables later, I'd add a couple more Cat5. Other than that, you've answered your own question.

Freeview/FM/DAB can all be combined on one cable - either with a passive combiner or a distribution amp with FM and DAB inputs as well as TV. Route this via the Sky box and you could just add a magic eye in each room for remote control of the Sky box. For other equipment you'd need to look at a different remote control solution - some are cabled, some are wireless, and some run over your computer network.

For the Sat feeds, these need to come from the LNB on the dish, NOT your main TV point (unless you are going to route 6 cables from the dish down to the living room and then pipe 4 of them back out again. You'll need an octo-LNB or a quattro (not quad) LNB and a multiswitch. You cannot split sat feeds because the cable does not carry all the signals, effectively some of the tuning is done at the LNB which selects roughly a quarter of whats available based on signals from the attached receiver.

 

[Sam Gangee]

It's a "Sky thing". On the back of a Sky box is an RF2 output which does several things :
It provides video of whatever is on the main screen - at the lowest possible quality because it's composite video, mono sound, and RF modulated. So you can pipe this around the house and tune in to your Sky box on any TV.

... with an analogue tuner.

With the right splitter/dist amp, you can use remote receivers and have remote control because the RF2 out also listens for remote control signals.
The RF2 out quality was "just about acceptable" in the days of SD, but I wouldn't recommend it for HD (you'll be disappointed if the TV is larger than 10").

Actually, it's generally reckoned to be OK on a TV up to 26".

The remote control function can, of course, be used without connecting RF2 to a TV. You can connect Scart or HDMI to the TV, instead, and still use RF2 with a thin cable connected to a "magic eye".

 

[SimonH2]

With the right splitter/dist amp, you can use remote receivers and have remote control because the RF2 out also listens for remote control signals.
The RF2 out quality was "just about acceptable" in the days of SD, but I wouldn't recommend it for HD (you'll be disappointed if the TV is larger than 10").

Actually, it's generally reckoned to be OK on a TV up to 26".

Hmm, it might have been back in the pre-digital days, when the 26" set would have been SD, and people were used to watching analogue transmissions.

I'm now used to watching freeview (not HD) on a 26" set (720, "HD Ready") - I'd not consider watching the analogue/RF modulated output from RF2 on a Sky box as "OK" any more. Not that there's any risk of that since I wouldn't have anything to do with Sky.