I need to confirm what I am going to do will work

[fretdancer]

Hi all
I think that thanks to this forum I have found a solution to my problem but just need to run it past the experts first

It concerns a ceiling and wall lights. In my lounge I have 2 wall lights and one ceiling light and a double wall switch.

I changed the ceiling light and have cocked up the wall lights somehow - previously one switch did the wall lights and one the ceiling lights - as it should do - however, since I have meddled now one switch does one wall light and one switch does the other wall light and ceiling light together

To explain what I have - in the ceiling are 2 cables each containing 3 wires 1 black one red and one has a green the other an uncoated - I presume these are the earths. I currently have both blacks together - both reds together and both earths together - the ceiling light has a brown, blue and earth - I have connected the brown to the reds the blue to the blacks and earths together. although I have lights working, its as described above.

Having done my homework I have found the picture on the reference page ( //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7553 ) the 7th pic down and I think what I have to do is this ( I have a 4 block connecter)
each outside connection gets a black wire - and into these I put the blue and the brown from the light fitting (blue to one black and brown to the other black) - the next block gets both reds and the final block gets the earths
so a 4 way connection block is wired thus if this makes sense:
1: black to brown. 2: red to red 3: earth to earth 4 black to blue

so am I on the right track?

Thanks

Pete

 

[Steve]

pete, that sounds right. one black is, in fact a switched live, goes to the live of the light. It shouldn't even matter which way you connect live and neutral afaik. But if you can find out, it would be best to wire it correctly. Can be done by testing resistance while flicking the switch (multimeter on ohms range)

 

[fretdancer]

OK
I have gone ahead and made the changes that I myself suggested but its not worked.
What I now have is each side light working off a different switch but the ceiling light no longer works at all

any suggestions?....
clearly I have totally cocked this up somehow and now I am started to get frustrated.
why are electrics harder than a rubiks cube
I am sure this must be easy but how many ruddy combinations can there be?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Further to my above posts:
is someone able to say whether that changes in the Ceiling rose area (which I no longer have - its now a choc box connecter) can change which switch will turn on a wall light? or would I have had to make some changes at the switch level for that to happen?
I dont believe I have made any changes at the switch but now I am wondering - My dad came round yesterday to "help" and took the wall switch off and changed the wiring to try to sort it saying that whats gone wrong MUST be at the switch (though I swear i never made any changes there) anyway he did make several changes with no effective result and I believe its now restored it to how it was prior to his fiddling.

If you read above thread you can see that what I now have is instead of one switch doing both wall lights - one of the wall lights comes on only with the main ceiling light and the other swich is turning on the other light - now I have made the changes I outlined in my first post - both wall lights still on seperate switches and no main light !!! doh!

Pete

 

[Har_vey]

I'm confused!

How many wires are there at the switch position?

is someone able to say whether that changes in the Ceiling rose area (which I no longer have - its now a choc box connecter) can change which switch will turn on a wall light?

Yes to that part

 

[Steve]

do you own a multimeter? you need it. put it on ohms range and go around testing continuity on switch cables. alternatively, get an electrician in to sort this mess out. IMO, it does sound like the cock-up has been at the switch. can you take some clear photos of the wires at each light and the switch?

 

[fretdancer]

I will take some photos sure - no problem - not sure how to post em here tho?
I dont have a multimeter
as for it being a big mess - lol, your not wrong there - although it all started with me taking down a ceiling rose to replace a light fitting and me not realising how darned difficult it would be - foolishly I thought it would be a 2 minute job, I was under the misguided impression that it would be a simple matter of putting a red to live black to neutral etc - of course now I know better !!!!

as to best describe what I have - is just 2 cables come out the ceiling - both have a red, a black and an earth
the switch is a double dimmer - cable has 3 wires in it red/white/blue
switch is double or 2 gang I think - each gang or switch marked C, L1 and I think either L2 or earth - (there is no earth wire at the swith end) what I have is red to C and a small red cable looped from that C to C on other switch - then switch 1 has white in L1 and switch 2 has blue in L1


if the ceiling is connected thus - both balcks together in one side of choc box connecter and blue light fitting to join to that in other side of choc box - red and red in another choc box and light fitting brown to that and earth to earth then the main light works with one switch but with one wall light also. other wall light works with other switch.
I now have 4 connecter choc box - have put each black cable to outer connecters - light fitting brown to one, light fitting blue to other - the 2 reds connected each side of one of middle connecters and earths in 4th connecter - now the wall lights work - each on seperate switch tho - and no main light.


I do apologise if I keep repeating myself - I feel like I am in trying to explain what I have

 

[Steve]

red white and blue? what sort of colour scheme is this?

as for the ceiling light, i now doubt that your wiring matches any of the diagrams in for reference, due to the colours not matching the switch wires. Can you find out where these 2 cables go? The 3 cores at the switch - are they just normally insulated? Or are they wrapped in tape? ideally, you need to find the other end of the switch cable.

 

[Har_vey]

Old rubber three core used those colours. I read that somewhere

Can you work out which is the neutral? One of the blacks hopefully.

Then it sounds like you have two switched feeds in. One of which will go to the brown. And a switched feed out to your wall lights. If you can figure out the neutral, then it's just a case of getting the main light to work, and joining the remaining two together.

If the cables are in rubber anywhere, then you need to get someone in.

 

[fretdancer]

red white and blue? what sort of colour scheme is this?

well its whats there - its NOT MY FAULT the house was built in 1936 - I think its been re-wired since - probably in 1937 !!!

Can you work out which is the neutral?

no - I dont have a clue how.

Then it sounds like you have two switched feeds in. One of which will go to the brown. And a switched feed out to your wall lights. If you can figure out the neutral, then it's just a case of getting the main light to work, and joining the remaining two together

this sounds kinda logical how do you suggest I get the main light to work? undo the reds and stick one through to the brown instead of the black i got there now....oh god, this is sounding horribly like the time I put my finger in an electric connection forgetting the power was on....

as for the ceiling light, i now doubt that your wiring matches any of the diagrams in for reference, due to the colours not matching the switch wires. Can you find out where these 2 cables go? The 3 cores at the switch - are they just normally insulated? Or are they wrapped in tape? ideally, you need to find the other end of the switch cable.

Yeah I kinda worked out its not like the diagrams !! lol
as for finding out where the cables go - well not without emptying my bedroom of furniture, lifting the carpet and floorboards - seems a bit drastic. and no nothing is wrapped in tape at all.

should I get an electrician in - is it worth it - what would that cost?
I mean - I can get all the lights working, just that I cant get em working with the correct switches and I cant just have both wall lights or just the ceiling light on...sigh

thanks for all the help so far though - I do appreciate it

Pete

 

[Steve]

Then it sounds like you have two switched feeds in. One of which will go to the brown. And a switched feed out to your wall lights. If you can figure out the neutral, then it's just a case of getting the main light to work, and joining the remaining two together.

i was thinking that, but he just has what sounds like 2 twin and earth cables . . . unless . . . someone has used an earth as a switched live. In which case extreme caution should be used when proceeding.

 

[Har_vey]

connect any black to the blue.

connect a red of the other cable to the brown.

leave the other two cores unconnected for now.

If the light is switching, then you just need to connect the other two together. If it is not switching, then start again with the other black.

Please do not connect anything while the supply is still on. Make sure you switch off the unit.

Perhaps better to leave it for now and do it tomorrow?

 

[fretdancer]

Perhaps better to leave it for now and do it tomorrow?

absolutely - too dark to work now - thanks for thinking of me though


I will try your suggestion and report back in the morning

Thanks

Make sure you switch off the unit.

no worries - I am terrified of leccy - even with the fuse off I am scared to touch wires !

 

[Har_vey]

i was thinking that, but he just has what sounds like 2 twin and earth cables . . . unless . . . someone has used an earth as a switched live. In which case extreme caution should be used when proceeding.

Doesn't sound like Fret is connecting anything other than the reds and blacks though. I'm thinking he is managing to get some kind of back feed to the wall lights, through the main light. Which might explain why it didn't go bang when he put both blacks together. If one is a neutral, then the other can't have been live.

Fret. get the wiring checked anyway!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I dont have a multimeter

Why not?

Do you own a hammer, or do you think it's OK to use a stone from the garden for banging in nails?

When you have screws to put in or take out, do you go to the kitchen drawer for a knife, or have you got some screwdrivers?

It's the same thing - what makes you think it's OK to work on electrics without the basic tools?

it all started with me taking down a ceiling rose to replace a light fitting and me not realising how darned difficult it would be - foolishly I thought it would be a 2 minute job, I was under the misguided impression that it would be a simple matter of putting a red to live black to neutral etc - of course now I know better !!!!

Why did you think it was OK to learn the hard way? If you had to overhaul a car engine, would you just start unbolting bits at random, or would you think that maybe you should study the workshop manual a bit?

What makes you think it's OK to work on electrics without the most basic knowledge?

 

[fretdancer]

Do you own a hammer, or do you think it's OK to use a stone from the garden for banging in nails?

When you have screws to put in or take out, do you go to the kitchen drawer for a knife, or have you got some screwdrivers?

It's the same thing - what makes you think it's OK to work on electrics without the basic tools?

I have the "basic" tools - ie an electrical screwdriver - a pair of cable stripping pliers etc - in 45 years of doing "minor" electrical work I have never needed a multimeter - that puts it in the range of specialist equipment in my book.

Why did you think it was OK to learn the hard way? If you had to overhaul a car engine, would you just start unbolting bits at random, or would you think that maybe you should study the workshop manual a bit?

What makes you think it's OK to work on electrics without the most basic knowledge?

as I have clearly stated above - I was expecting it to be nothing more than a simple very basic job when I started it - nothing in my previous experiences had led me to believe this would be any more difficult than changing a plug, yes I am learning the hard way and had I been blessed with fore sight I would have done things differently, the reason I am asking for help is because I cocked up, hands up - I admit it - and yes I was perhaps foolish to think what I did - again I already admitted that. Have you never made a mistake in life?....


Thanks for all the help I have had - am just about to have another go at it - wish me look

even if I had a multimeter I dont know what the heck to do with one - surely any peice of equipment you need training to use puts it out of the realms of "basic equipment" ?