Immersion / Cold Water Storage Tank to Power Shower in Bungalow

[bmouthboyo]

Hi Everyone,

I am looking to install a Triton AS2000R Power Shower in place of my existing old electric shower. I need to run pipes for the hot and cold water down through the ceiling as a temporary measure until we get around to a full bathroom refit in a few years. We just want a working power shower in the meantime.

I currently have a 140L immersion tank:

With a 230L cold water storage tank in the attic:

The idea is to add outlets to both the cold water and immersion tank, route along the attic floor and down into the bathroom to the power shower.

Could anyone point me in the right direction for the following:

1) What is the best fitting to use as an outlet from my existing immersion tank? It has no unused outlets but I am happy to drain, drill and fix one. Essex flange?
2) Where on the tank is best to fix this outlet? (I read that ideally a dedicated outlet is best but unsure if there are any rules as to where on the tank to add. High as possible?)
3) What is the best fixing to use on the curved cold water storage tank? (I am aware it needs to be below the HW outlet). The label states 'Polythene washers', do these go to compression fixings?
4) What diameter pipes should I use throughout? 22mm copper?
5) I am fairly confident with DIY so long as well researched, so going to give copper pipe soldering a go. Is copper pipe a sensible choice or are there modern alternatives I should really look into instead?
6) Given the hot water will need to flow from the ground floor up into the attic, along attic floor and down into bathroom, do I need to worry about pressure difference between that and the cold water one simply going from cold water storage along attic floor and down. Or does the power shower pump handle this variation fine?
7) Anything else I should consider?

Many thanks

 

[terryplumb]

As long as you are not fitting a stand alone pump ,you don't need to take a separate feed from the hot water cylinder via a special fitting( such as An Essex fitting)
How many outlets( besides the one feeding the cylinder) does the loft tank have ?

 

[bmouthboyo]

As long as you are not fitting a stand alone pump ,you don't need to take a separate feed from the hot water cylinder via a special fitting( such as An Essex fitting)
How many outlets( besides the one feeding the cylinder) does the loft tank have ?

Currently only one which goes to the immersion tank:

This also is as low as one could go so not sure how I will ensure the cold feed to the shower is lower than this. Need to swap this to shower feed and install a higher immersion feed?

I thought a power shower with built in pump should have it's own dedicated outlet in case someone uses hot water elsewhere? Where else should I ideally take a hot water feed on the tank from?

Space is tight around the tank, but the top fixing is most accessible:

 

[terryplumb]

As you intend to upgrade in the future ,in hindsight ,it's probably wiser to fit a dedicated flange now from the hot water cylinder I suppose. If you do decide to have a separate pump ,that bits done . Although " power showers" that have a built in pump are Ok ,they would be more aptly described as booster showers!!
A separate pump will give a vastly superior flow ,and of course would enable a rain head shower to be installed ,and would give you a proper power shower.
The cold water cisterns existing outlet should be re figured for the shower,and a new ,higher ,outlet used for the hot water cylinder feed.
Re Your earlier question regarding different pressures,they are both the same pressure.

 

[bmouthboyo]

As you intend to upgrade in the future ,in hindsight ,it's probably wiser to fit a dedicated flange now from the hot water cylinder I suppose. If you do decide to have a separate pump that bits done . Although " power showers" that have a built in pump are Ok ,they would be more aptly described as booster showers!!
A separate pump will give a vastly superior flow ,and of course would enable a rain head shower to be installed ,and would give you a proper power shower.
The cold water cisterns existing outlet should be re figured for the shower,and a new ,higher ,outlet used for the hot water cylinder feed.
Re Your earlier question regarding different pressures,they are both the same pressure.

Thank you for replying, really helpful advice.

One thing I am struggling to get my head around is if it is OK to have a pipe from the immersion going up into the attic to feed the power shower from above. In my head I imagine the pressure will be weak as most installations seem to be under the floor boards.

Secondly the shower manual states 15mm inlet pipes. Should I use 15mm from both the immersion and cold water instead of the 22mm I previously thought was best practice.

Thanks again for advice, really motivating to give this a go.

 

[terryplumb]

Stick to 22mm for the hot water cylinder feed.
The shower feeds can be 15 mm ,there is no point in using 22 as it would have to reduce at some point to 15 ,so serving no purpose.
Pipework from cylinder to shower is preferred to run downward ,but will still work going up ,across ,and down

 

[terryplumb]

Incidentally ,what is ,or will be, the vertical distance between your shower head (when it's fixed on the wall), and the underside of the cold water storage cistern ?
I appreciate it's not directly below ,and will be somewhat to the side ,but it's the vertical distance between them that determines the pressure. And there will be a minimum required for your shower.
Is it the 2000 SR ? Think you missed an S out of your description ??

 

[bmouthboyo]

Incidentally ,what is ,or will be, the vertical distance between your shower head (when it's fixed on the wall), and the underside of the cold water storage cistern ?
I appreciate it's not directly below ,and will be somewhat to the side ,but it's the vertical distance between them that determines the pressure. And there will be a minimum required for your shower.
Is it the 2000 SR ? Think you missed an S out of your description ??

The distance between the bottom of CW tank and shower head would be approx 110cm. Sorry I had indeed missed the S, the power shower is the Triton 2000SR.

I have had another look and tried to think of the best approach for my setup and now thinking of the follow:

1) Take a 22mm to 15mm T just below the immersion vent pipe T (see yellow area).

This then goes up to the attic and along to the shower. Seems this is considered a valid 'alternative' connection:

2) I use the existing cold water tank outlet for the immersion feed and install a 15mm flange on the opposite side, 25mm below. Should just be enough space and prevent having to lengthen existing or disturb the outlet.

3) Apparently I should not have to use any sealing products other than the rubber seal with the bellow fitting. Is this true?

4) Clean out the disgusting cold water tank and add a limescale preventative bag. It is currently disgusting!

Do I need a scale reducer?

I guess I am just looking for some validation for my method being the best approach to supply the shower with minimal disruption to the existing system. Thanks again for all comments / help.

 

[terryplumb]

With the head of water at 1.1 metre ,thats around half of the minimum required for the shower. Minimum 0.2 bar

 

[bmouthboyo]

With the head of water at 1.1 metre ,thats around half of the minimum required for the shower. Minimum 0.2 bar

OK damn. How would anyone use a power shower in a bungalow then? The diagram i posted above from the supplier states 75mm minimum between tank and top of the shower unit.

EDIT
Ah I think you may have mixed up the 0.2 min pressure output with the min pressure input:

 

[terryplumb]

Have a look at the minimum pressure required to supply the shower ,I think it's 0.2 bar ,in their installation instructions.
If it is ,then the diagram and the minimum pressures are contradictory.

 

[terryplumb]

OK damn. How would anyone use a power shower in a bungalow then? The diagram i posted above from the supplier states 75mm minimum between tank and top of the shower unit.

EDIT
Ah I think you may have mixed up the 0.2 min pressure output with the min pressure input:

Could be. Looks like your ok

 

[Madrab]

I would avoid taking any feed upwards before getting to the shower, all that does is promote air locks and can cause all sorts of headaches. How is the bath supplied by hot and cold water at the moment? I presume from the Cold water storage cistern (CWSC) and the HW cylinder. I would see no reason not to extend that pipework up to feed the shower?

Of course It may require some work to the wall to bury the pipework.

 

[bmouthboyo]

I would avoid taking any feed upwards before getting to the shower, all that does is promote air locks and can cause all sorts of headaches. How is the bath supplied by hot and cold water at the moment? I presume from the Cold water storage cistern (CWSC) and the HW cylinder. I would see no reason not to extend that pipework up to feed the shower?

Of course It may require some work to the wall to bury the pipework.

Unfortunately the old bath pipework goes under the existing electric shower tray so would require ripping it all out to have pipes coming from below it, as well as adding a cold water supply from the tank as they are all mains cold water at the moment in there.

This is just a stop gap for a year or so before a full refurb. At that point I may well take the HW supply from old bath from below and use the CW supply from tank I will be fitting for this. If that makes sense.

How likely would an air lock occur if I went by the manufacturers 'alternative' supply method of T'ing off the HW supply as in the diagram? Anything I can do to minimise this risk?

 

[Madrab]

Have a bleed valve at the top of the pipework on a length of vertical pipe on the vertical at the point that the pipe bends to run along the loft, use a tee and feed it from a surrey/warwix flange out the top of the cylinder.