Instant hot water taps.

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About 9 months ago was talking to a guy who was to fully renovate a small terraced house in a desirable part of London. A full strip out with insulation under the floor, insulation on the outside walls, in roof incline, shower room in the roofspace, triple glazing, insulated doors, etc. A small highly insulated extension out the back for the kitchen, open plan with an an open feature staircase. two bedrooms.

I told him he will not need a full heating system, so no rads on walls. He was having only a shower, no bath. I told him to consider getting rid of gas, saving gas meter space and the standing charge for gas. I directed him to high kW in-line instant electric water heaters for the shower and bathroom basin tap. I also mentioned instant hot water taps, an electric kickspace heater for the kitchen and underfloor electric heating for the bathroom and/or living room, also an electric towel rail in the bathroom. I mentioned heat recovery extractor fans.

I briefly met him last week. Project finished, with him pretty well doing above what I was roundly talking about. He was thinking that way anyhow. He did the sums with space saving paramount in a small house - no big combi on the wall or cylinders. He got an expensive boiling water Quooker tap, for the designer effect as well, however a number of makers make these sorts of taps now and much cheaper. He saved on spending a fortune on a designer electric kettle as well and saves worktop space to boot. He uses a raindance Hansgroshe shower mixer which is rated at 9 litres/min. The shower water is aerated.

He said his water bills are minimal as there is little water wasted as hot water is heater at point of use. Making tea & coffee is instant using the Quooker. He has not used the underfloor heating in the living room as the house is so well insulated, only the electric kitchen kickspace. I will have a look at his place in the next few months or so. Interesting for sure.

In highly insulated/superinsulated homes this must be the way to go now, omitting gas completely.
 
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We'll see how his electric bill is over the year/during the winter, that might make interesting reading. Really only suitable for a single person too IMO, who uses minimal amounts of hot water and is happy with typically low instantaneous HW flow rates.

I'm struggling to see how to get a decent shower out of a domestic in line HW heater though. Especially a raindance with the larger rainshower head on it.
 
  • Two bedroom with 2 people with occasional guests.
  • Raindance shower is only 9 litres/min. The aeration does makes it appear there is a higher flow. Quite impressive.
  • I pay 65 pounds per year just to have gas in the place before I use it. 65 pounds pays for a lot of electricity.
  • Space saving from not having the gas meter.
  • The electrical installation was much cheaper than a combi installation.
  • The boiling water taps do save over an electric kettle as no water is heated and not used, as in kettles, creating waste. Then the convenience of the instant hot water & boiling water tap.
  • No long dead leg pipes to empty of cold water to get hot water, to run up water bills and energy bills heating a long pipe with hot water then allowing it to cool down. The bathroom is in the roof space, a way from the rear ground floor.
  • The house is so well insulated it does not need heating much at all, hence looking at all electric. The only heating is to get it up to temperature then it stays off.
  • I did mention to have heating that brings the temperature up quickly (which usually means fan convection), which UFH does not, such as the kickspace. UFH is fine in the bathroom to warm your feet. I am not sure if he used electric UFH. Will find out next time.
About 15 years ago The House Builders Bible by Mark Brinkley assessed that all electric is viable in very well insulated and air tight homes. Even more so today with showers only with aerated shower heads.
 
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Certainly agree that in a prefect, tightly managed environment it's a great idea. Granted there are savings in space (unless the meter is outside) and standing charges but I'd still say that the current 3 times the Kw/H cost of leccy over gas is still the governing factor and for a 2.2 family it could still be substantially more expensive.

Would need to see the numbers.
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Raindance shower is only 9 litres/min. The aeration does makes it appear there is a higher flow. Quite impressive.
Can't see how an instantaneous inline HW heater would be able to supply that with enough hot water - even an inline 10.8kw (domestic max rating without 3 phase) in line will only give approx 5l/min @ a 25Deg rise - in winter so that could be as low as 30deg HW - 35deg with a tail wind, so not sure how good a shower that would be.
The boiling water taps do save over an electric kettle as no water is heated and not used, as in kettles, creating waste
The Quooker and similar types of these boiling water taps have a reservoir of water (usually 2-3 Ltr's) held at 100+Deg, normally under the sink - they usually run @ 1.5 - 3Kw, so they are fundamentally kettles controlled by a thermostat.

Proper pipe run planning and high quality insulation would minimise HW pipe heat loss and warm up.

There are definitely benefits to electric but unfortunately the extra cost outweighs them at the moment IMO.
 
Can't see how an instantaneous inline HW heater would be able to supply that with enough hot water - even an inline 10.8kw (domestic max rating without 3 phase) in line will only give approx 5l/min @ a 25Deg rise - in winter so that could be as low as 30deg HW - 35deg with a tail wind, so not sure how good a shower that would be.
They can always be doubled up. ;) One 11kW instant water heater takes a 48A single phase supply, so doubling up has to be one big and one smaller instant water heater, otherwise you are pushing the limits of a domestic electricity supply.
There are definitely benefits to electric but unfortunately the extra cost outweighs them at the moment IMO.
I explained a situation where electricity has an advantage - space heating is minimal because of superinsulation, in fact zero most of the time. In the situation I outlined electricity can tip the balance. The mindset is gas for CH & DHW, but when looking deeper in certain situations gas is not always the winner. The savings on an electrical installation over gas also pays for a lot of electricity. Then there is the space gained not having big white boxes on the wall or cylinders. London homes are very expensive, so you do not want to clutter this expensive space with unnecessary and bulky utility equipment.

Instant hot water taps are selling very well because of the convenience. However they can have an economic advantage. The boiling water taps are less costly to run over using electric kettles and faster. People will stomach extra running costs for convenience, time saving and less clutter on worktops. Most have electric kettles for coffee and tea, yet it would be cheaper to boil water on the adjacent gas hob. They are prepared to take the extra costs for faster hot water. The kettles also take up worktop space. The boiling water taps do actually save in running costs because of less wasted hot water.

This 11kW instant in-line water heater delivers 6.2Ltr/min at an increase of 30°C.
https://www.screwfix.com/p/strom-se...kw/4681p#product_additional_details_container
 
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IMHO All new houses should be built to passivhaus standards.

Means a chnage of lifestyle which some families would not be able to adapt to.

The jury is still out as to the health implications of living that "Passive House" life style
 
If you're going to be heating 9l a min electrically and draining it away in an otherwise efficient house you'd do well to get a heat exchanger for the drain. Then you won't need to start doubling up on electric heaters.
Having said that they aren't cheap and the payback may be a while unless the shower is well used.
 
Means a chnage of lifestyle which some families would not be able to adapt to.

The jury is still out as to the health implications of living that "Passive House" life style
Bernard, where did you get all that from? Passiv houses have air changes like all others. In winter most have controlled heat recovery ventilation. They have been around in Germany for decades.
 
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If you're going to be heating 9l a min electrically and draining it away in an otherwise efficient house you'd do well to get a heat exchanger for the drain. Then you won't need to start doubling up on electric heaters.
Having said that they aren't cheap and the payback may be a while unless the shower is well used.
These drainwater heat recovery pipes do work and do payback and improve efficiency of electric instant showers. You need to have a place to fit them, however not an issue in new build or renovation. They can be before the inlet pipe to an instant heater.
http://www.phamnews.co.uk/wise-up-to-water-waste-heat-recovery/
https://powerpipehr.co.uk
Power-830x496.jpg


The drain water spirals around the inside of the copper drain pipe, extracting as much heat as possible.

 
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Bernard, where did you get all that from?
From talking with architects, one of whom was an advocate of "passive" houses and then after experiencing life in such a building stopped advocating them.

Passiv houses have air changes like all others
No.. the ventilation is not like all others, the supply of fresh air to the occupants relies on mechanical ventilation and a source of power for the fans,
 
In winter mechanical ventilation is needed. In summer? No. The motor for the ventilation fan is slow moving and low wattage. The motors consume far, far less energy than a heating system to the point it is not worth considering. Using a PV panel for the fan can save a lot of energy as well, as you get the fan running for free in daylight hours.

With some passiv solar houses you live in the heat generator which can be uncomfortable. The thinking now is to have a super insulated house with a separate solar heat generator and store the heat (maybe in a very large thermal store, or even concrete or earth). Then pipe or fan the heat to the house.
 
An 11kW heater will deliver 5.2 litres/minute with a 30C temperature rise. In winter that gives you 'hot' water at about 35C.
Any ideas about a 9 litres/minute shower from such a device are pure fiction.

Hot water drain heat recovery units cost £500+ just to buy, installation extra. Even using the desperately unlikely figures provided by the manufacturers for the amount of heat recovered it will still be a 10-20 year payback time if the water is heated electrically. 50+ years if heating water by other means. In reality - never.

Electricity costs 4x more than gas making it the worst possible choice for heating. Given that the majority of electricity in the UK is generated by burning gas, the environmental impact is vast - 70% of the energy has already been thrown away before the electricity gets to your sealed, airtight, mould ridden Passivhaus.

Boiling water taps cost £1000, and are not instant - it's a permanently heated 3 litre container of water under the worktop. They save nothing.
 
An 11kW heater will deliver 5.2 litres/minute with a 30C temperature rise. In winter that gives you 'hot' water at about 35C.
Any ideas about a 9 litres/minute shower from such a device are pure fiction.
Another single phase instant heater can be added to up the flowrate. Also as been mentioned, shower drain heat recovery can be added to improve the flowrate.

When drain heat recovery units came about, the US Dept of Energy assessed they are worthwhile. Electricity costs about 3x to 4x more than gas making it the worst possible choice for heating, but if little heating is needed it makes sense. That is one of the points I have been putting across.

Boiling water taps costs have dropped as more makers are on the ball. Some do not do boiling water with some having the hot tap from the combi reducing dead leg delay and save wasted water. The boiling water models save over using electric kettles - also saving on worktop clutter in small homes, which is a bonus in itself.

Another one who hasn't a clue about solar homes.
 
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Here is a home made drain heat recovery pipe. He is wrong in that they can only be fitted vertically.

 

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