Is this a serious problem? (Subsidence etc) Advice needed

[AJ1983]

This problem is a bit beyond my basic DIY knowledge, but would anyone know if this crack that is filled is likely to be something serious or more superficial?

Basically I'm buying a property and it has this crack running up the outside wall, I've question the vendors but have only been told that its been there since the 1970's and its fine.

I do plan to request a full structural survey as part of my bank's property valuation, but wanted to get some opinions before that stage.

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• AJ1983
• 6 Mar 2014
• 1

Untitled

• AJ1983
• 11 Mar 2014
• 2

Untitled

• AJ1983
• 11 Mar 2014
• 2

Untitled

• AJ1983
• 11 Mar 2014
• 2

 

[noseall]

It looks to me as though the front facade has been re-skinned at some point as the bricks and coursing look different to the side elevation.

I would say that the front is either a more recent addition or that there were more properties adjoining yours and that the side elevation was subsequently exposed once the properties were demolished. Hence the 'common' brickwork to the side elevation.

As long as the masonry is adequately tied into the inner skin then I don't foresee any problems.


A quick look at the rear/side corner shows the same differing brickwork.

 

[AJ1983]

It looks to me as though the front facade has been re-skinned at some point as the bricks and coursing look different to the side elevation.

I would say that the front is either a more recent addition or that there were more properties adjoining yours and that the side elevation was subsequently exposed once the properties were demolished. Hence the 'common' brickwork to the side elevation.

As long as the masonry is adequately tied into the inner skin then I don't foresee any problems.


A quick look at the rear/side corner shows the same differing brickwork.

Thanks, that's some good knowledge you have. Just to add the change in brick colour that you can see in the far right of the picture is where an extension to the rear of the property was built.

 

[conny]

If the crack you are talking about is the one on the front corner it appears to be as Noseall has said. I too think there was an adjoining property to this one at some earlier stage and that was demolished for whatever reason. The corners were then 'turned' in blocks of 5 or 6 courses rather than every other course, (which in my opinion would have looked better), this block returning may well be the cause of the cracks and I think you are wise to get a structural survey done before purchasing.

Try to have a look at some old photo's/maps of the road or speak to some elderly residents to see if there was something attached in the past. If there was then I would want to know why it isn't there any more before going ahead with the purchase. Its possible that the present owners didn't know of an attachment and the house may have been rendered when they bought it so this corner wasn't visible at that time. I think you should investigate thoroughly before you end up with a money drain on your hands.

 

[KenGMac]

Any indications internally of any "movement?"

Any indications of uneven plaster, splitting wall paper?

Any internal doors not fitting correctly?

You will probably need a Sheep why? to clear the grass out of the rain water gutter.
This to me indicates that the present owner has left a load of defects still needing some sort of repair.

If you do decide to go for a full structural survey, then in your written INSTRUCTION to the engineer be very, very specific to note that there is some concern about the front? right hand corner and right hand gable, go on to describe best way you can the "odd looking" wide vertical brick joints, why?

If you can see a potential problem, a qualified Structural Engineer when pointed in a specific direction will give you a lot more "come back" should the Engineer give the property a clean bill of health and you need to pursue him if things go wrong in the future, even a "Full Structural Survey" will be accompanied with a shed load of "disclaimers"

Ken

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I can't stand this any longer - it's driving me to distraction.

Any indications internally of any "movement?"

Why do you think that the word movement needs to be in quotes? What do you think the quote marks signify, and why?

... go on to describe best way you can the "odd looking" wide vertical brick joints, why?

Why do you think that the phrase odd looking needs to be in quotes? What do you think the quote marks signify, and why?

If you can see a potential problem, a qualified Structural Engineer when pointed in a specific direction will give you a lot more "come back" should the Engineer give the property a clean bill of health and you need to pursue him if things go wrong in the future

Why do you think that the phrase come back needs to be in quotes? What do you think the quote marks signify, and why?

Also, I don't understand why if he can see a potential problem, a qualified Structural Engineer when pointed in a specific direction would give him a lot more come back should the Engineer give the property a clean bill of health and he needs to pursue him if things go wrong in the future. Can you clarify that?

, even a "Full Structural Survey" will be accompanied with a shed load of "disclaimers"

Why do you think that the words Full Structural Survey and disclaimers need to be in quotes? What do you think the quote marks signify, and why?

 

[AJ1983]

I can't stand this any longer - it's driving me to distraction.

Any indications internally of any "movement?"

Why do you think that the word movement needs to be in quotes? What do you think the quote marks signify, and why?

... go on to describe best way you can the "odd looking" wide vertical brick joints, why?

Why do you think that the phrase odd looking needs to be in quotes? What do you think the quote marks signify, and why?

If you can see a potential problem, a qualified Structural Engineer when pointed in a specific direction will give you a lot more "come back" should the Engineer give the property a clean bill of health and you need to pursue him if things go wrong in the future

Why do you think that the phrase come back needs to be in quotes? What do you think the quote marks signify, and why?

Also, I don't understand why if he can see a potential problem, a qualified Structural Engineer when pointed in a specific direction would give him a lot more come back should the Engineer give the property a clean bill of health and he needs to pursue him if things go wrong in the future. Can you clarify that?

, even a "Full Structural Survey" will be accompanied with a shed load of "disclaimers"

Why do you think that the words Full Structural Survey and disclaimers need to be in quotes? What do you think the quote marks signify, and why?

You have far too much time on your hands!

 

[amwc]

It looks to me like there may have been stone stone coins in the corner and rather than repair they have put some brick in?

 

[KenGMac]

AJ1983, Hi again.

I have imported your photo, enlarged it and cannot see any "recent indications" of movement, that is the historic cement infill on the gable does not "appear" to have moved recently, there does not appear to be any "gaps" between the cement infill

The photo appears to indicate that historically the front wall has moved outwards and away from the gable, BUT the majority of the fill is at the base of the gable wall, seeming to indicate that the front gable has "slid, outwards away from the gable" rather than the front wall having "rotated" away at the first floor / roof area away from the gable wall?

As in a previous post, if you can go back and look for, uneven fit around a door to its frame, sloping floors, cracks in the plaster. best found by the use of a torch held with the body of the torch parallel to the wall and sweeping the wall with the beam, this shows up any plaster cracks, this can indicate Subsidence.

NOW FOR WHAT COULD BE THE nasty bit?

You are purchasing a property.
The "valuation Surveyor" acting for the MORTGAGE LENDER will report on the possibility of previous "movement" of the property.
If you need to make a claim for Subsidence at some time in the future the investigating loss adjuster will call for the valuation report, if it notes previous movement "Subsidence" then your claim to repair the property will be DECLINED, why because of a pre-Existing condition [ A standard EXCLUSION on all insurance policies]

As an aside you when applying for insurance cover will be required to complete a "statement" to verify as to whether or not the property has, or has not suffered from Subsidence, or indeed flooding Etc.

The photo seems to indicate that this is a solid, one brick thick gable and front wall? these walls are at times are notorious for buckling and allowing rain water to enter the property.

Hope some of the above assists? glad to ignore our "parentheses" keyboard warrior, hope it does not offend you, if so Please report it to the moderator.

 

[conny]

AJ1983, Hi again.

I have imported your photo, enlarged it and cannot see any "recent indications" of movement, that is the historic cement infill on the gable does not "appear" to have moved recently, there does not appear to be any "gaps" between the cement infill

The photo appears to indicate that historically the front wall has moved outwards and away from the gable, BUT the majority of the fill is at the base of the gable wall, seeming to indicate that the front gable has "slid, outwards away from the gable" rather than the front wall having "rotated" away at the first floor / roof area away from the gable wall?

As in a previous post, if you can go back and look for, uneven fit around a door to its frame, sloping floors, cracks in the plaster. best found by the use of a torch held with the body of the torch parallel to the wall and sweeping the wall with the beam, this shows up any plaster cracks, this can indicate Subsidence.

NOW FOR WHAT COULD BE THE nasty bit?

You are purchasing a property.
The "valuation Surveyor" acting for the MORTGAGE LENDER will report on the possibility of previous "movement" of the property.
If you need to make a claim for Subsidence at some time in the future the investigating loss adjuster will call for the valuation report, if it notes previous movement "Subsidence" then your claim to repair the property will be DECLINED, why because of a pre-Existing condition [ A standard EXCLUSION on all insurance policies]

As an aside you when applying for insurance cover will be required to complete a "statement" to verify as to whether or not the property has, or has not suffered from Subsidence, or indeed flooding Etc.

The photo seems to indicate that this is a solid, one brick thick gable and front wall? these walls are at times are notorious for buckling and allowing rain water to enter the property.

Hope some of the above assists? glad to ignore our "parentheses" keyboard warrior, hope it does not offend you, if so Please report it to the moderator.

There are gaps in the in-fill joints. Take a closer look at the section on the gable wall between the upper and lower window. The vertical section looks as though the builder was running out of mortar and couldn't be bothered mixing up another batch.

Verifying whether a property has suffered from flooding or subsidence is subjective. An average householder is not expected to know the full history of a property but must disclose the fact IF it is known to him.

Neither wall is a "solid, one brick thick gable and front wall." It is double skinned as can be verified from the header bricks in each elevation. In particular, the gable wall has continuous courses of header bricks rather than a set number per course, as was often done. This was the method of tying both walls together before cavity houses became the norm.

Regarding the gable and the front gable. There is only one gable wall and that is the one at the side of the property. The front gable is called the front elevation wall.

If you are going to have a go at someone who wants you to explain your incorrect use of parenthesis then at least have the intelligence to use the correct terminology for the subject you are talking about. By the standard of your grammar and punctuation in your second reply it would appear that you find the use of little used phrases/words as a sign of intelligence. When used incorrectly it rather shows your misunderstanding of the English language. If I were to receive a job application to that standard it would be placed in the reject file upon first reading.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You have far too much time on your hands!

Didn't take very long.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have imported your photo, enlarged it and cannot see any "recent indications" of movement, that is the historic cement infill on the gable does not "appear" to have moved recently, there does not appear to be any "gaps" between the cement infill

Why do you think that the words recent indications, appear and gaps need to be in quotes? What do you think the quote marks signify, and why?

"slid, outwards away from the gable" ... "rotated" ... "valuation Surveyor" ... "movement" ... "Subsidence" ... "statement"...

Ditto

glad to ignore our "parentheses" keyboard warrior, hope it does not offend you, if so Please report it to the moderator.

Those quote marks (they are not parentheses, BTW) are not getting there by accident - you are choosing to put them there on purpose - you must have a reason for it, unless you are mad.

What is the reason?

Maybe I should report you for offensive punctuation.

 

[noseall]

It looks to me like there may have been stone stone coins in the corner and rather than repair they have put some brick in?

Unlikely, as this would be indicative on the adjacent front elevation also.
What backs up my theory of a previous building being present is the evidence of sooted bricks showing at the bottom centre of the gable elevation.

Maybe an old fireplace?

Could be wrong on all counts of course. What is true though is that the side elevation brickwork is completely different to that of the front elevation and that it appears that it is of 'common' standard.

It also appears that higher up the gable, I.e. above window height, the brickwork resumes to best quality standard.
This may be that the demolished building was lower than its neighbour.

 

[Emeraude119]

Where headers appear on brick elevations, this indicates that the wall is most likely to be a one brick (215mm wide) solid brick wall rather than a cavity wall. The front elevation at least has been built in Flemish bond (alternate headers and stretchers in the same course) The gable wall is a little less distinct, but there do appear to be headers in that wall too.

In cavity walls really the only time headers are seen are at corners, or where the brick layer has to use them at openings or perhaps to regain the bond.

Occasionally designers / architects / owners, insist on a specific bond pattern in cavity walls with brick outer leaves, which requires headers, but in a cavity wall these would have to be snap headers (otherwise the brick would cross the cavity) which is a time consuming and expensive option, owing to the extra time taken to cut each header as it is required, and this in turn can lead to increased wastage of expensive facings.

Perhaps one of the least expensive and least disruptive ways of checking what is going on with the wall, is to dig a small pit at the gable wall down to the footings / foundations to see if the crack at the corner is carried down to, and continues through the substructure. If it does, it could be that differential movement / settlement between the front elevation and gable has occurred.

 

[AJ1983]

Where headers appear on brick elevations, this indicates that the wall is most likely to be a one brick (215mm wide) solid brick wall rather than a cavity wall. The front elevation at least has been built in Flemish bond (alternate headers and stretchers in the same course) The gable wall is a little less distinct, but there do appear to be headers in that wall too.

In cavity walls really the only time headers are seen are at corners, or where the brick layer has to use them at openings or perhaps to regain the bond.

Occasionally designers / architects / owners, insist on a specific bond pattern in cavity walls with brick outer leaves, which requires headers, but in a cavity wall these would have to be snap headers (otherwise the brick would cross the cavity) which is a time consuming and expensive option, owing to the extra time taken to cut each header as it is required, and this in turn can lead to increased wastage of expensive facings.

Perhaps one of the least expensive and least disruptive ways of checking what is going on with the wall, is to dig a small pit at the gable wall down to the footings / foundations to see if the crack at the corner is carried down to, and continues through the substructure. If it does, it could be that differential movement / settlement between the front elevation and gable has occurred.

Thanks, you seem to know what you're talking about. I will go and see how far the crack goes down.