Issue of certificates

[ncoups]

Hi!

My mother has had some kitchen fitters contracted from Ikea, and as expected the workmanship has been terrible.

The electrics in particular are crap, and I'm trying to prise the certificates out of them but I'm being given the run around.
The claim is that we have to pay for the certificate, as far as I'm aware that's illegal isn't it?

Also would you say installing unit w/worktop smack bang in front of a double socket is against regs?

They quoted for "earthing of gas and water mains" but have infact just bonded straight from CU earth bar to under sink pipes.
Would you say that the wording "mains" should be construed as main equipotential as opposed to some useless supplementary bonds?

Theyve also charged £70 for "testing of kitchen circuit before work commences to ensure all is safe to connect and disconnect"
Is that charging mumsy to isolate the circuit?!!!

Cheers!!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The claim is that we have to pay for the certificate, as far as I'm aware that's illegal isn't it?

Pretty much.

Also would you say installing unit w/worktop smack bang in front of a double socket is against regs?

Yes.

They quoted for "earthing of gas and water mains" but have infact just bonded straight from CU earth bar to under sink pipes.
Would you say that the wording "mains" should be construed as main equipotential as opposed to some useless supplementary bonds?

Well - is under the sink where the water supply enters the property?

Was there main bonding present for the gas before, and is there now?

Theyve also charged £70 for "testing of kitchen circuit before work commences to ensure all is safe to connect and disconnect"
Is that charging mumsy to isolate the circuit?!!!

It could well be perfectly reasonable testing that any installer should do before starting, but £70 seems a bit steep if all they were doing was adding things to an existing circuit.

 

[sparkiemike]

Hi!

My mother has had some kitchen fitters contracted from Ikea, and as expected the workmanship has been terrible.

The electrics in particular are crap, and I'm trying to prise the certificates out of them but I'm being given the run around.
The claim is that we have to pay for the certificate, as far as I'm aware that's illegal isn't it?

No you can charge for what you like. However if they offered to do electrical work I would expect them to comply with BS7671 and the building regs and issue the relevant certificate. As it is a kitchen I would also expect them to comply with Part P and notify the LABC. EDIT: They should have made this clear at quote stage, but they can charge for it.

Also would you say installing unit w/worktop smack bang in front of a double socket is against regs?

If it not accessible then yes, they could just cut a hole in a stragegic position.

They quoted for "earthing of gas and water mains" but have infact just bonded straight from CU earth bar to under sink pipes.
Would you say that the wording "mains" should be construed as main equipotential as opposed to some useless supplementary bonds?

Before they work they have to make sure the earthing and bonding arragements are adequate, were they adequate?

Theyve also charged £70 for "testing of kitchen circuit before work commences to ensure all is safe to connect and disconnect"
Is that charging mumsy to isolate the circuit?!!!

Depends, did they test it? If so fair enough, especially if there is a risk the client won't pay for remedial work.

 

[ncoups]

I didn't see them test the circuit upon completion or at start, and as far as i can work out they aren't qualified and are getting a sparks from another firm to come out and certify the works. I've raised this with niceic.



The main bonding was already present.

and are you sure you can charge for certificates, i thought it was mandatory to provide certificates and illegal to charge. perhaps charge to print them, but they must be presented in some format or another.

 

[sparkiemike]

There are two certificates

1. The electrical installation cert and this is part of the wiring regs BS7671
2. The cert of compliance which is produced as a result of notification to LABC - part P of the building regs.

The electrician from the other company can only notify work that he has done the part P bit i.e. he can't notify other people work.

What did your contract with IKEA or these subbies say. That will be the basis of any claim. Maybe a visit to trading standards. If they agreed to do the electrical work then as said I would expect them to issue the certificate, but there is no law against charging for it. What does the quote/contract say?

If the kitchen fitters are not NICEIC registered then the NICEIC will not do anything unless the fitters made a false claim saying they were registered.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No you can charge for what you like. However if they offered to do electrical work I would expect them to comply with BS7671 and the building regs and issue the relevant certificate. As it is a kitchen I would also expect them to comply with Part P and notify the LABC. EDIT: They should have made this clear at quote stage, but they can charge for it.

If they chose compliance with BS 7671 as their route to compliance with P1 then they have NOT complied with the former until they have issued the certificates. Not issuing the certificates means that they have not finished the job and have not complied with the law, and so they should not have asked for any payment.

I doubt very much that telling a customer that he'll have to pay extra to get the electricians to act lawfully is lawful.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

If they agreed to do the electrical work then as said I would expect them to issue the certificate, but there is no law against charging for it.

But if they don't issue it then they are in breach of BS 7671, and by extension almost certainly guilty of a criminal offence.

I'm surprised that Ikea use criminals to install the kitchens they sell.

If the kitchen fitters are not NICEIC registered then the NICEIC will not do anything unless the fitters made a false claim saying they were registered.

They ought also to do something if it's a NICEIC electrician who turns up and falsifies an EIC.

 

[sparkiemike]

If they chose compliance with BS 7671 as their route to compliance with P1 then they have NOT complied with the former until they have issued the certificates. Not issuing the certificates means that they have not finished the job and have not complied with the law, and so they should not have asked for any payment.

Why not ask for payment, it is common practice in this county to pay for goods or services before they have been delivered. They could have paid upfront or stage payments - it does happen. It depends on the T&Cs and contract.

I doubt very much that telling a customer that he'll have to pay extra to get the electricians to act lawfully is lawful.

Two different issues here,
1. not issueing the cert
2. withholding the certificates and asking for payment of the certs - they are two different things.
They have not said they won't or can't issue the cert. The only time constraint it the notification, however in this case I acknowledge it is purely academic as the fitters are probably not in a position to offer a cert or notify LABC and are trying it on and it is a poor show from Ikea.

 

[sherlockholmes]

Have you contacted IKEA? They may just be unaware they have subcontracted to dodgy dealers here. They must use a lot of installers.

 

[ncoups]

I have contacted ikea who weren't best pleased, and i've threatened the kitchen fitters manager with court proceedings for various electrical regs breaches.
He's already offered a refund of £2500 but I think I'm going to get get a full refund for all kitchen fitting works.
thanks for help