johnson and starley air heating with rads?

[tomlewis007]

Hi All, We have a johnson and starley boiler its a hot air system, after a small issue i have found out that the boiler is basically two boilers in one...... one for the hot air and the other for the water.

My Question......


For the short term maybe 12 months until we can afford a new boiler is it possible to add radiators to the current water part of our system?

thanks


-Tom

 

[WDIK]

so what is actually is the problem?

 

[gasmick2]

what you have is a warm air heater and a water circuling that heats the water in a DIRECT copper cyd you cannot fit steel rads to a copper hotwater heater at all its only classed as a sink heater but most warm air instalations were fitted with these type of heaters so the answer is NO
I have fitted hundreds over the years of all makes
mick

 

[cozzmic]

Well if its a Hi Jan (I think) or super Jan water heater in the WAU you can run rads off it and hot water but through an indirect cylinder with motorised valves and a timer as the water heater has a solinoid in it to open and close electrically. Have done it the once a few years back and worked succesfully. Mind you are limited to about 6kw in total so just a few rads only.

 

[spacethegas]

i assume you have a janus circulator fitted within the wau casing. i very much doubt its direct (possibly fitted to an elson primatic cylinder). basicaly the answer is no.

 

[simond]

depending on the type of water heater and what you have already got connected to it (eg: direct or idirect cylinder) the answer could be yes.

But you would have to add a J&S pump kit and run your rads back to the heater/cylinder, which is not where your new boiler would probably be sited.

We often add a Vaillant 937 combi in these circumstances and remove the water heater and cylinder. That way you get up to 28Kw of rads, plus 20l/m of hot water. And you keep the WAU.

 

[tomlewis007]

There is no issue with the boiler's hot air system...... the issue is that with the gaps above the doors to aid airflow..... the noise around the house is a joke.

We have a relative living with us at the moment and we can hear almost everything from any other room, so i want to block up the windows above the doors and fit new thicker doors.

We can't afford to get a new boiler and get it fitted until next year.

I posted about this gap before and it needs to stay there??


How can i check if the system is direct or indirect to the cylinder?

thanks


-Tom

 

[nickso]

removing the door gaps (return air path) probably wont reduce noise. the air ducts are probably carrying more noise. what you will do is reduce the effectiveness of the heating of each room you block off.

 

[Agile]

I think that I now understand what you are asking!

However the water heating part of the warm air heater is only very low power and not suitable for heating the house as well as the water.

If the relative is snoring then you could put an electric heater in their room and block their room only to keep their sound in.

You can get credit arrangements to fund proper central heating as a home improvement loan from your bank. Dont be tempted to use the BG scheme unless you find their high price is cost effective. It may be financed over three years but its usually very expensive.

Tony

 

[tomlewis007]

Nickso > My Plan would have been to remove the airgaps above the doors and block the air vents also.

Don't want to be tied into a loan at the moment.... Would have prefered to get and install the rads my self..... save up and then get the boiler next year.



With a loft boiler install does it have to be in a wall? or can the flu go out of the roof?

THANKS

 

[BigBurner]

Nickso > My Plan would have been to remove the airgaps above the doors and block the air vents also.

Don't want to be tied into a loan at the moment.... Would have prefered to get and install the rads my self..... save up and then get the boiler next year.



With a loft boiler install does it have to be in a wall? or can the flu go out of the roof?

THANKS

The Janus water heater can do upstairs rads. You will know if it is a direct or indirect cylinder by reading the label or what kind of water you have, hard or soft. Soft water areas heat the water directly. Is there a small tank in the loft?

Removing the return air glass louvers is OK. Best block up the supply air to the rooms concerned to prevent sound travelling through the ducts. Suitable materials can be used to do this.

Assuming you have an indirect cylinder, the cheapest way for a take off to the rads is from the cylinder. Use a bronze pump and a small plate heat exchanger on one side of the plate. Another iron pump on the rad circuits. This way you keep the cylinder. To heat up in the morning the rads get hot instantly. It is best to bring them on earlier than the air unit, so the cylinder can recover for DHW. As the air unit heat the hall, the amount of kW needed for the rads will not be great.

Another way is to fit a duel coil cylinder. The Janus heating the bottom coil and the CH rads taken off the top coil. The CH can be a sealed system with no F&E tank.

Another way, is as been suggested is fit a combi to do DHW and the upstairs rads. As the air unit is only heating half the house now, the heat up will be very quick in the morning.

A combi can go in the loft and the flue through the roof. It needs boarding from hatch to boiler with a "permanent" strong light over the hatch and boiler. A shoot down ladder is needed. No external isolation is needed for the combi.

 

[Gasguru]

If you have return air paths from gaps over the doors it is likely you will have a single large return air grill above the compartment containing the unit..normally located in the hallway.

It is possible that by blocking these return air gaps above the doors, the hallway could undergo a reduction in air pressure having a detrimental effect on the flue ie an unsafe condition. There are balanced flue warm air heaters (that would be immune from this problem) but they are normally found in tower blocks. Therfore for safe operation don not block any grills/vents/gaps.

You may also want to have the circulator (the small boiler) checked out before considering other options. These heat exchangers are often found in a terrible state. They are a pain to clean so rarely get done resulting in blockage and sometimes leaking from being overheated.

 

[BigBurner]

If you have return air paths from gaps over the doors it is likely you will have a single large return air grill above the compartment containing the unit..normally located in the hallway.

It is possible that by blocking these return air gaps above the doors, the hallway could undergo a reduction in air pressure having a detrimental effect on the flue ie an unsafe condition.

Return heating air is totally separate to combustion air. A permanent air vent to the outside has to be adjacent to the warm air unit, or in the room it is in, if it is an open flue model.

There are balanced flue warm air heaters (that would be immune from this problem) but they are normally found in tower blocks. Therfore for safe operation don not block any grills/vents/gaps.

That is incorrect.

There are copper coil warm air replacements available. These are known as air handling units. They replace the warm air unit, or just the heat exchanger, and use hot water supplied by a boiler. A good combi will supply the hot water and the DHW too and also do rads upstairs as well.

 

[simond]

You are wrong, Big Burner. Gasguru is correct in his advice.

His is talking about Economaire; my company (for example) fit a number of these every month into private houses, as a modern, safer, alternative to open flue units.

They are a room sealed Johnson & Starley warm air heater designed for domestic use with a modulating fan, pulsed gas train and no pilot light. Much safer, no airbricks required, and quieter too.

And the blocking of return air paths could have a negative effect on the combustion of an open flue appliance in certain situations. Also, how does the poster differentiate between a return air path and combustion air vents? May BG engineers have this problem so it is surely dangerous to advocate here to a DIYer?

 

[BigBurner]

You are wrong, Big Burner. Gasguru is correct in his advice.

His is talking about Economaire;

He was? He was rather confused

my company (for example) fit a number of these every month into private houses, as a modern, safer, alternative to open flue units.

They are a room sealed Johnson & Starley warm air heater designed for domestic use with a modulating fan, pulsed gas train and no pilot light. Much safer, no airbricks required, and quieter too.

And the blocking of return air paths could have a negative effect on the combustion of an open flue appliance in certain situations. Also, how does the poster differentiate between a return air path and combustion air vents? May BG engineers have this problem so it is surely dangerous to advocate here to a DIYer?

Blocking a return air path and reducing flow are two different things. I reiterate, return air is separate to combustion air which he was clearly implying and you are are stating. If the combustion is unaffected, reducing or blocking return air will mean the appliance will not run dangerously. They have overeat stats, etc.