Keeping boiler return temp lower as TRV’s close down

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As in the title - it seems that as TRV heads close down radiators there is less heat transfer available from the boiler cooling water to the house rooms. This in turn leads to a rise in boiler return temperature which ultimately goes above 55 degrees even when the initial delta T upon system startup is circa 20 degrees (70 flow and 50 return).

On a heat only condensing boiler setup, is there anything that can be done to maintain the delta T?

Grundfos Alpha pump perhaps?
 
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Why should there be rise in return temperature?

The burner heats the water in the heat exchanger, output of which is controlled by the sensor circuit ( boiler thermostat). As the flow temperature starts to rise because the loading has reduced, burner will modulate down keeping the output temperature rise within tolerance.

Conversely, as more rads come on line, flow temperature drops momentarily, compensated by bigger burner flame and then stabilises. Thus effect can be seen on instruments now available that connect to smart phones and can be viewed in real time

Do not forget, the condensing boiler have a sensor on the output as well as the return pipe to the boiler heat exchanger. My boiler further has a pump where the speed is controlled by the boiler control circuit
 
Why should there be rise in return temperature?

The burner heats the water in the heat exchanger, output of which is controlled by the sensor circuit ( boiler thermostat). As the flow temperature starts to rise because the loading has reduced, burner will modulate down keeping the output temperature rise within tolerance.

Conversely, as more rads come on line, flow temperature drops momentarily, compensated by bigger burner flame and then stabilises. Thus effect can be seen on instruments now available that connect to smart phones and can be viewed in real time

Do not forget, the condensing boiler have a sensor on the output as well as the return pipe to the boiler heat exchanger. My boiler further has a pump where the speed is controlled by the boiler control circuit

Surely, with a fixed speed pump, even with the boiler at its lowest modulation percentage, the flow velocity will increase. As a result of this there is less cooling water heat transfer to the surroundings (because radiators have closed down), so the return temp will rise right up to the point where the boiler either shuts off due to the room stat being satisfied, or it begins to short cycle until the stat is satisfied.

That’s what I’m seeing in nearly all systems I come across (including my own) that consist of a heat only (condensing boiler) with external fixed speed pump coupled together with rads with TRV’s and traditional timer and room stat controls.

Isn’t that why grundfos and other pump makers designed the automatic variable speed pumps?

As for radiators coming back online once they’ve already closed down, doesn’t that mean that the system isn’t balance correctly? I have balanced my own system so that all rooms heat up at roughly the same speed and the TRV’s close down just before the point that the room stat is satisfied and turns off the heating for that “cycle”.

I wouldn’t have thought it was a wanted behaviour that the radiators are being turned on and off multiple times within one heating period.
 
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As for radiators coming back online once they’ve already closed down, doesn’t that mean that the system isn’t balance correctly? I have balanced my own system so that all rooms heat up at roughly the same speed and the TRV’s close down just before the point that the room stat is satisfied and turns off the heating for that “cycle”.

I wouldn’t have thought it was a wanted behaviour that the radiators are being turned on and off multiple times within one heating period.

They will not turn on and off as such, rather they will reduce and increase flow to maintain temperature once near set temperature. The only times they will go fully on or off, is when the operator changes the setting on the TRV.
 
They will not turn on and off as such, rather they will reduce and increase flow to maintain temperature once near set temperature. The only times they will go fully on or off, is when the operator changes the setting on the TRV.


Strange then, when my TRV’s have closed the radiator down the rad goes cold.
They will not turn on and off as such, rather they will reduce and increase flow to maintain temperature once near set temperature. The only times they will go fully on or off, is when the operator changes the setting on the TRV.

So when the radiators go cold once the room has achieved TRV set point, is that not fully turned off? Didn’t know that.

Instead of beating about the bush, I’ll just spit it out.

i want to reduce my return temp! When the heating has been on for an hour and most rads are near off on the TRV, the return temp creeps upwards from its initial 50 degrees to about 65 degrees, with the flow still at 70. The boiler is on its lowest modulation by that point. Can’t turn pump speed down anymore as on number 1 the last upstairs radiators struggle for flow. It’s a big system.

Maybe im attempting something shouldn’t ? Other than the fact the return temp increases the heating is working fine.

Anything I can do?
 
or it begins to short cycle until the stat is satisfied.
Modern boiler never short cycles


I wouldn’t have thought it was a wanted behaviour that the radiators are being turned on and off multiple times within one heating period.

Assume heating is going to run for four hours, from startup one hour later the room has reached its desired temperature. Now the TRV shuts down. Room is not going to stay at that temperature for rest of the on period. As room starts to cool down because of the heat losses, TRV will start opening and radiator will come on line.
 
The old mechanical TRV in my draw has 2 to 3°C between fully open and fully closed, the electronic type you hear slowly altering the flow rate either due to room warming up or cooling down, or the programmed time for a change in room temperature. But when they exercise at 12 noon on Saturday they take around 8 minutes to cycle between fully open and fully closed and back to required setting, but each time you hear them run otherwise they only run for a few seconds, this is the whole idea of analogue control, everything slowly opens or closes and increases or decreases until the boiler is at minimum output and only then does the boiler cycle off/on, and not only does the mark/space ratio change, but also the total length of the mark/space cycle.

Today the word seems to be algorithms, we are told boilers have algorithms built in, and TRV heads have algorithms built in, and thermostats have algorithms built in, all designed to reduce hysteresis and running costs, but we rarely know how these algorithms work.

So one boiler may measure the temperature drop and adjust the output so the return water gets cooler as the output drops but not all, some only way to do that is for some thermostat connected direct to the ebus. And as the user it is hard to see how much if any the use of modulating thermostats help.

The idea of OpenTherm is good, but as to if it works better than using just return water temperature not so sure, one problem is so often the careful design is compromised by some other cleaver device where they don't work in harmony with each other, for example this 84067_P.jpg thermostat which is on/off and starts to cycle off/on before it reaches target temperature to reduce hysteresis, very good idea with an on/off boiler, but messes up a modulating boiler.

There are other ideas which when started were good, but not really suited for a modulating boiler, as the user we think the installation is designed for the home, but so often errors are made, and it is not helped because it would cost too much for a perfect system so we work with a compromise.

I was told as far back as I could remember you don't put a TRV in the same room as the wall thermostat, I was also told the on/off thermostat should be fitted in a room normally kept cool, on ground floor, with no doors to outside and no alternative heating. But that room rarely exists, so we need to think about what we are doing, not blindly follow rules which often no longer apply.

So I thought about it with mothers house, what I wanted is for the hall to recover quickly after front door has been opened, but to then slow down before is switches off the wall thermostat, and the TRV will do just that, it transformed the heating system adding a TRV to hall radiator.

We were also told one radiators to allow water to always circulate, often bathroom towel rail, but that was before we used by-pass valves and modulating boilers.

Theory says lock shield and TRV should be fitted to all radiators, but kick space fan assisted radiators also should not have flow restricted, but one odd one fitted in kitchen works well even if not following the general rules.
 
Strange then, when my TRV’s have closed the radiator down the rad goes cold.

Closing completely, would suggest to me that a room temperature must be over shooting for some reason. What I can say is that the 8 of the 9 radiators in my home fitted with TRV's, when the heating is on, never go completely cold. I will point out that I have installed a weather compensating heating control system, which is able predict exactly how much heat my home needs to meet a demand, so it can avoid over -shooting. As it approaches the set temperature, it gradually ramps its output down to minimum.
 
Today the word seems to be algorithms, we are told boilers have algorithms built in, and TRV heads have algorithms built in, and thermostats have algorithms built in, all designed to reduce hysteresis and running costs, but we rarely know how these algorithms work.

So one boiler may measure the temperature drop and adjust the output so the return water gets cooler as the output drops but not all, some only way to do that is for some thermostat connected direct to the ebus. And as the user it is hard to see how much if any the use of modulating thermostats help.

The idea of OpenTherm is good, but as to if it works better than using just return water temperature not so sure, one problem is so often the careful design is compromised by some other cleaver device where they don't work in harmony with each other, for example this thermostat which is on/off and starts to cycle off/on before it reaches target temperature to reduce hysteresis, very good idea with an on/off boiler, but messes up a modulating boiler.

Nail, head there I think Eric....

Too many clever algorithms, each not compatible with others and all fighting each other. Maybe something more basic might work better and with more efficiency?

It was to avoid such a situation, that I decided to limit my heating control system, to the manufacturer's (Vaillant) own recommended system and matching system. The only items extra to that which I added, were wax / mechanical TRV's, simply because I had them in stock.

As I have pointed out a number of times, my system is absolutely spot on - it bring the house up to temperature rapidly when called to do so, yet never over shoots and is certainly more economic to run than it was previously controlling a condensing boiler, with just an on off wireless room stat.
 
Nail, head there I think Eric....

Too many clever algorithms, each not compatible with others and all fighting each other. Maybe something more basic might work better and with more efficiency?

It was to avoid such a situation, that I decided to limit my heating control system, to the manufacturer's (Vaillant) own recommended system and matching system. The only items extra to that which I added, were wax / mechanical TRV's, simply because I had them in stock.

As I have pointed out a number of times, my system is absolutely spot on - it bring the house up to temperature rapidly when called to do so, yet never over shoots and is certainly more economic to run than it was previously controlling a condensing boiler, with just an on off wireless room stat.

Wax TRVs are dead end, 80's technology.

Just switch over to a smart TRV/Stat system which works with the boiler.

I know old farts like to use heating on a digital on-off basis, but energy is becoming important. Heating the whole house/floor/zone when you really don't need to anymore is daft.
 
Wax TRVs are dead end, 80's technology.

So what? They work, they work very well indeed KISS.

Just switch over to a smart TRV/Stat system which works with the boiler.

I know old farts like to use heating on a digital on-off basis, but energy is becoming important. Heating the whole house/floor/zone when you really don't need to anymore is daft.

I already have a fancy boiler control system which works very well indeed and was fully upgraded just two years ago. No one likes tech as much as I do, but tech for tech's sake - no. Yes, I do heat the whole house as one zone, but it is very well insulated and economic to run - I would save nothing by zoning it and it would involve considerable disruption, unless I went for programmable TRV's which would take years of payback time, so not worthwhile.
 
A bit like Harry, I have a condensing boiler (all be it a heat only boiler with no internal pump control) with existing controls, all be it “dinosaur age” controls. Simply consists of a wireless room stat, timer and TRV’s. I have no intention or desire to spend hundreds of pounds upgrading the controls for something which will take years to break even on with savings. I don’t even think my BG 330 has the capability for things like weather compensation? Thats what our last Gas Safe man said at the last service anyway. Who am I to disagree? If that’s false please let me know.

I was always under the impression that only heating some spaces led to more heat loss than heating it all up together?

I just want to work with the existing controls and boiler to make them work a little better - even gaining a couple of percent worth of efficiency at the boiler if I can keep the return temp at 55 degrees or lower for longer.

if my rooms are over shooting, what can I do about that? Balance down a bit?
 
Regarding controls.

Controls don't save money, in fact, they may cost you money. The benefit is in getting the heating systems to do what you want when you want it. Usability is the main benefit.

I don't expect to see much payback from the money spent on my smart controls, but i am seeing a huge difference in the operability of the system.
It has the rooms at the temp i want when i want it, as it learns the heating profile of the house. It can boost a room when i ask it too (Verbally). It allows me to have the office warm only in the day, and the odd room or two on at night. It allows each occupant to do what they want without affecting others. If i had a cold conservatory, i could set it to winter setting and forget about it, etc, etc.
 
A bit like Harry, I have a condensing boiler (all be it a heat only boiler with no internal pump control) with existing controls, all be it “dinosaur age” controls. Simply consists of a wireless room stat, timer and TRV’s. I have no intention or desire to spend hundreds of pounds upgrading the controls for something which will take years to break even on with savings. I don’t even think my BG 330 has the capability for things like weather compensation? Thats what our last Gas Safe man said at the last service anyway. Who am I to disagree? If that’s false please let me know.

I was always under the impression that only heating some spaces led to more heat loss than heating it all up together?

I just want to work with the existing controls and boiler to make them work a little better - even gaining a couple of percent worth of efficiency at the boiler if I can keep the return temp at 55 degrees or lower for longer.

if my rooms are over shooting, what can I do about that? Balance down a bit?

The gas man is wrong. smart systems have weather compensation built in. If your boiler can have load compensation as well, they can do that.
Heating everything up to save money is a myth. Heat what you need when you need it and not when you don't.

I'm going to sound like a salesman here, but adding smart system to yours will tackle all of your ills. Overshooting, weather compensation, boiler modulation, etc, etc.

Its like, what, £400 to do it yourself. Not the most you'll ever spend. worth it for the benefits imho.

Understood if any money is too much though.
 

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